Biggest inconsistencies Q&A

[Sviox]

Hi everyone. I've been wondering about multiple issues concerning the HH period of time. Hope someone can answer these:

 

1) Since the HH (From Istvan to Terra) took roughly 7 years, how come Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines didn't make it to Earth in time? And why would Horus have sent some legions (DA&BA at least) on campaigns 'far from Terra' at the beginning - wouldn't that have been a bit useless given that they had 7 years to regroup and get back to defensive position?

 

2) How was warp travel even possible during the great crusade / HH since the Emperor wasn't providing the beacon in the warp?

 

3) Since Magnus broke the defensive wards of the imperial palace / webway, was the Emperor really tied down to the chair for seven years to keep the demons out? I mean... I think he left at least once during 'Nemesis' book, but on the other hand during the final battle above Earth, Malcador had to take his place there which eventually killed him. Am I missing something?

 

4) In the books, it has been multiple times mentioned that the primarchs spent some time on Earth together with the Emperor (as one big happy family). This really troubles me given that the galaxy is a big place where distances can be even dozens of weeks of warp travel. When could this have happened, considering that the primarchs were found one-by-one and the last (Alpharius) was found towards the end of the crusade, and the expedition fleets got more and more scattered? It makes no sense to pull back to Earth. At the 150th year of the crusade, did the Emperor simply decide to have a tea party at his summer residence? By the way, anyone know how long it takes from one edge of the galaxy to the other?

 

I might have more, but these are the ones I could recall at the moment. Please share your own troubling inconsistencies as well. Hope you have some good speculation on these :D

[Pariah Mk.231]

I'll do my best to answer these for you.

 

1: As covered in Flight of the Eisenstein, there are growing amounts of warp storms, making travel dangerous and slow. Couple this with the fact that traitor forces had also engaged those legions that were not present at the Siege of Terra, making it difficult for them to simply pack up and head home, causing further delays.

 

2: Even before being confined to the Golden Throne, the Emperor was still lending his psychic abilities to the Astronomicon, creating the beacon. Even without the beacon, travel would still be possible, but extremely perilous and unpredictable, akin to sailing without a compass on an overcast night. The beacon is simply a reference point that navigators use to plot their course and ensure they sick to it, it's not what allows them to actually enter the warp. It could still be done, but you'd have to be extremely insane to do it.

 

3: Can't help you on that one, haven't read Nemesis or even that much about the Emperor's attempt at a man-made webway and the problems it suffered.

 

4: It's not just the books that imply this, but various Index Astartes articles too. I don't recall a point where they were all present at once, but i'm pretty sure each of them got the chance to be there when at least a few of his brothers were also present. Alpharius might be an exception since Horus kept him to himself for awhile after he was found, but he did have a chance to meet his brothers at least once.

 

As for my personal annoyances, the Heresy books just don't mesh with the established fluff very well in general but there are two that really stand out.

 

1: Omegon: What a load, the Alpha Legion only ever had the one Primarch, not this twin-deal that's going on now. I don't buy it and refuse to accept it.

2: Cypher: Comparing the old fluff for him with the character in the books, I'm convinced they are not the same person. The Cypher of 40k may be the sucessor to the position of Cypher, but he is not the Cypher from the novals. Not unless he managed to get younger, decided hang around to get a new set of armour with a spunky new paint job and some robes before grabbing the Lion Sword and buggering off.

[isilvra]

Inconsistencies are an annoyance but try these:

 

1) Dark Angels were being tied down by the Night Lords for the first 2 years. Space wolves also ran into the Night Lords who were tasked by Horus to do just this sort of thing. Delay the loyal legions as long as possible. Other reason is warp storms which is covered in No Know Fear.

 

2) Astronomicon was running in the HH but I believe that since the warp was calm during the Crusade that is was less necessary or could be powered by normal psykers.

 

3) Yes the Emperor was pretty much tied to the chair, apart from the time he could get away for a short while since he was dealing with the odd incursion and not a major invasion all the time. When he boarded the Vengeful Spirit though there was an all out offensive underway in the webway as well as on Terra.

 

4) Stands to reason there would have been at least one gathering. I figure it would take 2 or so years since it's about 2 years transit from Terra to the 63rd fleet. I figure Horus would have been the most advanced from Terra.

 

Of course these are just explanations. Could be they just didn't think of these things.

[Iron Lord]

2: Cypher: Comparing the old fluff for him with the character in the books, I'm convinced they are not the same person. The Cypher of 40k may be the sucessor to the position of Cypher, but he is not the Cypher from the novals. Not unless he managed to get younger, decided hang around to get a new set of armour with a spunky new paint job and some robes before grabbing the Lion Sword and buggering off.

 

There are two Cyphers in the novels- the first and the second. The second is young- for the period. Younger than Luthor, and probably close in age to Nemiel.

[Perrin]

Does it say in any of the HH novels that Dorn recalled all the loyal legions to Terra as soon as he heard about the Dropsite Massacre? Can't remember if it does, but it would have made more sense that if Horus doesnt seem to be making his way straight to Terra, then theres no point in the loyalists just sitting around the Sol system while the traitors take the galaxy, they would probably have mobilised to defend certain sectors and take vital planets from the traitors, like the Lion does in the second DA book.

I might be wrong if Dorn did recall them all straight away.

[Sviox]

Inconsistencies are an annoyance but try these:

 

1) Dark Angels were being tied down by the Night Lords for the first 2 years. Space wolves also ran into the Night Lords who were tasked by Horus to do just this sort of thing. Delay the loyal legions as long as possible. Other reason is warp storms which is covered in No Know Fear.

 

2) Astronomicon was running in the HH but I believe that since the warp was calm during the Crusade that is was less necessary or could be powered by normal psykers.

 

3) Yes the Emperor was pretty much tied to the chair, apart from the time he could get away for a short while since he was dealing with the odd incursion and not a major invasion all the time. When he boarded the Vengeful Spirit though there was an all out offensive underway in the webway as well as on Terra.

 

4) Stands to reason there would have been at least one gathering. I figure it would take 2 or so years since it's about 2 years transit from Terra to the 63rd fleet. I figure Horus would have been the most advanced from Terra.

 

Of course these are just explanations. Could be they just didn't think of these things.

 

Thanks, these are actually very good answers. Especially hadn't thought about number 2 from that point of view. There has been some references to the warp "not remaining so calm forever" but I've quite never seen mention of it getting permanently worse during the heresy (i.e. up until 40k to create the need for Emperor as beacon), only something about being worse during the heresy.

[Kol Saresk]

Does it say in any of the HH novels that Dorn recalled all the loyal legions to Terra as soon as he heard about the Dropsite Massacre? Can't remember if it does, but it would have made more sense that if Horus doesnt seem to be making his way straight to Terra, then theres no point in the loyalists just sitting around the Sol system while the traitors take the galaxy, they would probably have mobilised to defend certain sectors and take vital planets from the traitors, like the Lion does in the second DA book.

I might be wrong if Dorn did recall them all straight away.

Well that part is weird. He sends out a call to every Legion that wasn't sent to Istaan. He finds out about the Massacre as survivors trickle in. Then we go to Deliverance Lost where Corax comes back. I base the survivors trickling on something Dorn said in the novel but I can't remember what exactly it was or what page it was on. But then we see in a short story where the DA are trapped by warp storms and have since taken it upon themselve to take out the Night Lords. The Ultramarines get attacked by half of the Word Bearers Legion. Calth gets wiped out and the Word Bearers retreat. The Ultramarines are also trapped by the warp storms. Now, they're makin it that the Ultramarines decide to consolidate their forces and let the Heresy happen. They also invite the DA to join them. Sometime after this the Lutheran Heresy on Caliban happens.

[eyeslikethunder]

The warp storms are created by a ritual the Wordbearers do at Calth

[Kol Saresk]

Well I haven't read Know No Fear yet so I didn't know that. :P

[dragon950]

The warp storms were also disrupting communication between the astropaths far away from terra. Dorn couldn't communicate with most of the loyalist legions that weren't at istvaan 5 for some time.

 

1.I blame this on a bad idea from the writers, I could see how horus would take 7 years to reach terra becuase of trying to build up his forces. But still was a bad idea.

2.I'm sure the light was dim, but it still should have been there if you believe that the emperor is in both the normal realm and the real of chaos at the same time.

3.There has to be times when the demons don't attack, or whatever is actually going on.

4.Guessing that after a legion completed their mission of bringing a planet/solar system back under imperium control they would head back to terra to reinforce and rearm if they took some casualties. The primarchs just met others there at different times.

[Cyrox]

As for my personal annoyances, the Heresy books just don't mesh with the established fluff very well in general but there are two that really stand out.

 

1: Omegon: What a load, the Alpha Legion only ever had the one Primarch, not this twin-deal that's going on now. I don't buy it and refuse to accept it.

2: Cypher: Comparing the old fluff for him with the character in the books, I'm convinced they are not the same person. The Cypher of 40k may be the sucessor to the position of Cypher, but he is not the Cypher from the novals. Not unless he managed to get younger, decided hang around to get a new set of armour with a spunky new paint job and some robes before grabbing the Lion Sword and buggering off.

 

Agree about Omegon. Can't stand that piece of fluff, it's ridiculous.

 

The idea of 7 years between the Dropsite massacre and siege of Terra annoys me intensely also. You're a crap commander if it takes you 7 years to build up your forces, and it's just doesn't mesh with the older fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

He was consolidating his territory. If the assualt on Terra failed, Horus was probably planning on retreating to the Eastern Fringe with the Istvaan as his main seat of power. Don't know since nothing worked according to plan.

[Veteran Sergeant]

As for my personal annoyances, the Heresy books just don't mesh with the established fluff very well in general but there are two that really stand out.

I do tend to agree to an extent. I'm cool with the "bigger and grander" version of the Heresy they've put together, but a lot of it definitely doesn't mesh with the established fluff, which seems unfortunate since a lot of the worst offenders, continuity wise, were mostly changes that were unnecessary.

[Liquidice]

Yall should think of how hard it is to write the HH books when all the outcomes / characters are already known. How do you make grand stories and exciting stories if you had to stick to fluff that was written 25 years ago. One of the problems that I face with reading the HH is that I know who lives and who dies. With the lack of character suspense (unless unknown characters aka loken are brought in), the books have to rely on a gap between Istavaan and Terra (which they have prolonged) to expand the previously established fluff.

 

But seven years is understandable considering the logistics and progression of the characters. Lorgar had to go to the eye, Mortarion had to get in touch with papa nurgle, etc. Also one must remember that space if a very big place, and the concept of how much time passes between scenes is not told. For all we know it took over a year between the dropsite massacre and the first Istavaan incident. Time fluxed as well from warp storms that inhibited communication and warp travel.

[Cactus]

Question 2 is answered in The Lion (part 1 in this month's Hammer & Bolter e-magazine, full story to appear in The Primarchs). It features a navigator and describes how warp travel is different now that the Emperor isn't providing a beacon.

[Valkyrion]

It didn't have to take Horus 7 years to reach Terra, he wanted it to take that long.

 

Drop Site Massacre - 3 loyalists dead, 8 turned traitor.

Still alive - Space Wolves (en route to Prospero), Thousand Sons (Horus couldn't count on their support at that time), Ultramarines (not at Calth yet), Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Blood Angels.

Horus doesn't know what the Emperor is doing either.

 

So, immediately after the Drop Site massacre, Horus is standing against 7 full legions, the Emperor, the Sisters, virtually the entire Imperial Army, virtually every single conquered planet, half of the AdMech, the Custodes...

Going straight to the most defended planet in the galaxy straight away would have meant failure.

 

The 7 years were needed for Horus to lay the foundations of his own Empire, converting compliant worlds to his cause. It would be no good for Horus to kill the Emperor only to have every world rally against him.

 

So, in the intervening 7 years, Horus waylays the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines, the Sons are virtually destroyed leaving him against only 3 legions. He'd also have converted a lot of worlds providing him with a lot of meat shields with guns. Suddenly the odds are in his favour.

[Bat33.1]

It's just the usual with authors, too lazy to double check their facts before putting pen to paper, or key stroke to computer more like :angry:

 

Even somebody regarded as a literary great like Conan Doyle managed to 'forget' the original name of Dr Watson's wife in an early story and when she reappears as a character in later stories her name has changed :P

 

Although being a bit kinder to the author at this point you could point the finger at the editor or even proof readers...

 

My thought on the whole seven years thing is simple, space is a jolly big place with lots of nothingness between the stuff so it's going to take a while to get anywhere. The Great Crusade was what 200 years or so give or take? With 4,000 plus expedition fleets spread across the galaxy? That's a lot of stuff spread over a whole heap of space and no matter how good Horus' i phone of the day was you ain't all gonna meet in Mac D's carpark outside the Emperors Palace on Terra for a bit of a ruck the next day :tu:

 

Besides it would make the story a lot less interesting...

[Kol Saresk]

And actually I don't think they are really ignoring the fluff so much as allowing it to actually happen. Remember, Terra has to be fortified and Signus Prime with the Blood Angels has to happen. And the Blood Angels have to arrive at Terra far enough ahead of Horus in order to properly man the battlements. And whatever happens with the White Scars has to happen so they can get to Terra. So seven years is somewhat realistic so everything is actually able to happen. Best way to think of it is that they decided to make the fluff realistic.

[Corsair]

I find the idea that professional authors - officially sanctioned by the publisher of the background, no less - should be 100% beholden to background text written by game designers haphazardly over the course of a couple of decades (and which contradicts itself frequently with little help from outsiders!) to be kind of absurd.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I find the idea that professional authors - officially sanctioned by the publisher of the background, no less - should be 100% beholden to background text written by game designers haphazardly over the course of a couple of decades (and which contradicts itself frequently with little help from outsiders!) to be kind of absurd.

 

Truer words have rarely been posted in this forum.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I find the idea that professional authors - officially sanctioned by the publisher of the background, no less - should be 100% beholden to background text written by game designers haphazardly over the course of a couple of decades (and which contradicts itself frequently with little help from outsiders!) to be kind of absurd.

Believe it or not, everything written has inconsistencies in it. Watch MASH sometime. Besides, it makes them money so they don't care.

[Retributis]

The authors don't care or GW don't?

 

To imply that the authors of the HH don't care about what they write is MASSIVELY insulting to them as well as blatantly untrue from the (albeit brief) conversations I've had with some and evidenced as untrue by how people like AD-B write and act on this very forum.

[Kol Saresk]

The authors don't care or GW don't?

 

To imply that the authors of the HH don't care about what they write is MASSIVELY insulting to them as well as blatantly untrue from the (albeit brief) conversations I've had with some and evidenced as untrue by how people like AD-B write and act on this very forum.

Who implied that? The last few comments have been in the defense of the HH authors. The original HH fluff was written with no official structure. It was like a group of people got together and said "I want this to happen because it's cooler than Tiamat from D&D." Don't get me wrong, it is good fluff. But then you have I-don't-even-know-how-many-fans asking for a more detailed storyline about the Heresy. One problem, the current fluff has no flow. If they completely remove it and rewrite, they are going to lose a very large fanbase. So instead what they do is reengineer what is already there so it can work.

 

Like I pointed out, the original fluff made it that Istvaan V happens. Then Terra happens immediately afterwards. But in between Istvaan an Terra, you are supposed to have Signus Prime with the Blood Angels, what was originally the cloning incident with the Raven Guard and a couple other things. Those take time to happen. The HH authors are just making it able for those things to happen.

[A D-B]

The idea of 7 years between the Dropsite massacre and siege of Terra annoys me intensely also. You're a crap commander if it takes you 7 years to build up your forces, and it's just doesn't mesh with the older fluff.

 

So you're annoyed. You seem annoyed, mostly, because it's different and you can't see why it's different. With respect, those aren't great reasons to be annoyed by something.

 

You're going to get some stuff that doesn't match with older fluff. Absolutely. Firstly, it's the series' mandate to make all of this more realistic, plausible, epic, interesting and fleshed-out. That necessitates some change, especially when - as has been pointed out - you're dealing with professional authors looking at a few paragraphs written by game designers over the course of two decades, often invented with no regard for a greater narrative. Yes, the first action of many fans is to say "This is different, therefore it's wrong." Well, that's their call. They're wrong, but such is life.

 

"Old" doesn't always mean "better" or "classic". Sometimes "old" just means "old". Worse, it might mean "outdated". Or "decrepit". The Chaos Codex is old. Would you like that updated, or should it stay the way it is, just because it's older than anything newer, and therefore has priority in your mind? I will stand and say, with a straight face to anyone, that out of all the authors who let BL publish their stuff, I'm the one who is the most conservative and hesitant to change any older fluff. But even I recognise it has to be done.

 

Also, rather than ridicule the point because it doesn't mesh with older fluff, think about why it would take 7 years. And I don't mean "Just think about it for a second, then assume everyone is an idiot and they don't understand the setting." I mean look at it from the point of view of what we know so far, and what we can guess. Maybe it takes 7 years because the galaxy is an insanely huge space that takes years to cross even in warp, and Horus wants to conquer many of Mankind's million worlds. Maybe he has reasons for wanting to conquer them that we don't know yet. Maybe he recognises a few Legions aren't enough to take Terra, and he needs an unstoppable host, raised from those worlds. Maybe there are other reasons, too. Why wouldn't there be? Why would the answer just be "They're wrong, he's useless"? Why wouldn't there be reasons that are either ovbious and guessable, or going to be revealed later?

 

This is the biggest problem, I've found, with 40K's fandom (myself included, when I read other authors' work). The first reaction of many fans isn't to say "Hm, I wonder how this new angle could work? What new stuff does this show that I've not considered before?" It's to say "I don't see it that way, so it's wrong."

 

That fundamentally misses the point of why this setting is so open, and its entire design.

[Vazzy]

I'm going with Emperor Palpatine "Do what must be Done"

 

If old fluff has to be messed with, do it.