Deathwing Suggestions

[librisrouge]

I'm hoping to get some fellow Unforgiven advice on some Deathwing considerations I've been toying around with lately. I'm wanting to make a 'pure' deathwing force which means (to me) that it'll be all characters, Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and Terminators

 

1) Are both the banner and apothecary worth it. They're steep points but they certainly benefit.

 

2) What is your preferred build for Belial. I'm leaning toward Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for survivability but I've seen a few drop the Lightning Claws on him. Does anybody actually use the Power Sword and Storm Bolter?

 

3) How many Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield guys would you pack per squad? I'm thinking about two. Any more and I loose too many guns and I have enough horde players ('nids and orcs) around here to mandate taking Storm Bolters to soften things up.

 

4) Is the Power Sword sergeant ever worth it or do you guys always upgrade him? I'm leaning toward Lightning Claws.

 

5) Finally, would a pure shooty squad be out of the question as a backfield objective holding unit? I'm had success with basic terminators in C:SM and it seems to me that cover will account for a lack of Storm Shields while the Storm Bolters let you participate since you probably don't want to leave your objective and risk not making it back.\

 

I know it's asking a lot but I appreciate all of your time and advice guys.

[Phaeton]

In my point,

1) Absolutely. It greatly improves our assault group potential (Belial + enhanced terminators + LRC / + chaplain, if you had points)

2) TH+SS, because 3++ is vital, and 8 STR is versatile. Belial doesn't have Iron Halo, and 5++ is too low protection.

3) I used mechanized deathwing, and i use 5 th+ss or 4 th+ss and 1 chainfist+hf

4) No. Too weak hth, too weak shooting. Give him th+ss or claws.

5) I love vitality in my deathwing squads, so for shooting I prefer 5 th+ss with cyclone. But if in you meta not very much marines, you can use shooty guys.

Good lucj with Deathwing!

[Pbenner]

The only thing I would disagree with is that I have a pure shooty squad of terminators. Since I lacked the CMLs to add to this sixth squad, I went Powersword and Assault Cannon on the sergeant with 2x Powerfists and 2x Chainfists with 4x Stormbolters.

 

I wish I could have a different power weapon than a fist on my shooty group, but with the assault cannon, the Powersword is the only at initiative attacks I have.

 

Every other sergeant I have is rocking twin claws, except my command squad has a chainfist.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Tengo]

1) Yes. The FNP and narthicium's rule of ignoring one failed save per turn are great little failsafes for those rainy rounds, and the banner is great for getting the most out of the charge.

 

2) TH+SS, Belial's lack of Iron halo means that a good lascannon shot can turn him into a pile of dust, and the sword of silence isn't all that much at all, The 3+ inv. makes the TH+SS a necessary load out for Belial.

 

3) Personally? I take two, mainly because I like to balance the perks of the LCs and TH+SS, and because taking nothing but shields and hammers seems a bit power-player-ish to me, but then, it is a legitimate strategic option!

 

4) I like to take a Heavy flamer in my assault terminator squads, just so they're better equipped to deal with hordes, I usually give that to my sgt alongside a power sword, so I can keep 2 double LCs and 2 TH+SS in the squad.

For a tactical terminator sgt, I take a PS+SB, I'd maybe take him with double LCs and CML, but that's mainly because it makes a cool mini :ph34r:

 

5) I think, if you're taking a pure Deathwing force, you'd kinda need a unit of shooty termines, I always like to keep them hanging back as reargaurds, 5 storm bolters and a CML is adequate firepower to protect objectives and strategically critical locations, and, at the end of the day, they're in terminator armour, with powerfists, despite being 'shooty specialised' they'll still do better in combat than most other options in the codex, just be sure to stick them in cover, so make up for the loss of storm shields and initiative!

[HJL]

Hmm im pretty sure you dont get fnp and ignore 1 failed save. Still totaly worth it though

[Pirog]

1. Absolutely, they are worth every penny in my wallet.

 

2. Thunderhammer & Storm Shield. As mentioned he doesn't have Iron Halo, Eternal Warrior or anything similar. 3++ is vital and with his 3 wounds I usually don't see him as "Belial" but 2 extre TH+SS Terminators for soaking up non-instant death wounds.

 

3. All my squads are tailored to support what I feel is the most effective and survivable unit when looking at wound allocation. With a total of 3 TH+SS per squad they look like this:

Seargant with TH+SS

Ordinary Terminator with TH+SS

Terminator with CML and TH+SS

Terminator with Powerfist and Stormbolter

Terminator with Chainfist and Stormbolter

 

This means all models count as unique models for wound allocating. I put a good punch in close combat against both infantry and vehicles, I can put out a few shots a turn to harass and soften up the unit I'm charging.

The CML+TH+SS Terminator is always the one I'm trying to keep alive the most for his load out, to keep the special weapon as long as possible.

 

4. As mentioned, he gets the TH+SS treatment as even tho he is identical to the ordinary TH+SS terminator, he counts as another model for allocation purposes due to the fact that he is the sergant.

 

5. Hard one. Actually, I want a shooty unit later on, just because it's cool. But as I play I hardly leave any unit behind. They are simply to expensive to have in the background, risking a turn or more without them being able to shoot and thus make any damage.

I've yet to loose a single battle with my DW and I play very aggressivly. I go forward every turn, making for the middle objective(s), leaving my own behind for a few turns. Depending on how the match looks at around turn 4 I would start making it back if I felt I needed that objective. However I've almost massacred every enemy I've met this far leading to me rather capturing the middle objective and the one in the enemy's deployment than keeping the one in my own.

[Tengo]

Hmm im pretty sure you dont get fnp and ignore 1 failed save. Still totaly worth it though

 

 

They definitely give the ignore one failed save, I remember reading FNP too, but flicking through the codex, its not there to be seen, so I may have got that bit wrong.

[pueriexdeus]

My rendition of Belial and Command Sqd:

 

Belial, TLC's

Sgt, TH/SS

Banner, TH/SS

Apoth, TLC's

CML, TLC's

Troop, TH/SS

 

This gives me three of each TLCC & TH/SS. On the charge thats 33 attacks with the banner, 6 xI5, 12x I4 & 15x I1. After the charge its still 28 attacks. The combined 3xSS and, FNP have kept everyone alive so far. I prefer having the TLC's to deal damage prior to the TH's hitting, allows me to weed out the ablative armor of the nasties hidden in the op's unit.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/pueriexdeus/TDACMDVowComplete004.jpg

[Ruthven]

Hmm im pretty sure you dont get fnp and ignore 1 failed save. Still totaly worth it though

 

 

They definitely give the ignore one failed save, I remember reading FNP too, but flicking through the codex, its not there to be seen, so I may have got that bit wrong.

 

 

As per the FAQ update last year, the Apothecary works in line with all the other fifth edition Apothecaries, it doesn't ignore the first wound anymore, instead they give feel no pain.

[Droma]

Hmm im pretty sure you dont get fnp and ignore 1 failed save. Still totaly worth it though

 

 

They definitely give the ignore one failed save, I remember reading FNP too, but flicking through the codex, its not there to be seen, so I may have got that bit wrong.

 

 

As per the FAQ update last year, the Apothecary works in line with all the other fifth edition Apothecaries, it doesn't ignore the first wound anymore, instead they give feel no pain.

 

^^ this. It was FAQ'd at the same time we got updated CML's, storm shields, and typhoons.

[Tengo]

As per the FAQ update last year, the Apothecary works in line with all the other fifth edition Apothecaries, it doesn't ignore the first wound anymore, instead they give feel no pain.

 

 

Pah, that's where I thought I read it, I'm always forgetting FAQ updates :ph34r:

[riddles]

Haven't read the other posts so i'm going to dive right in.

 

1) Are both the banner and apothecary worth it. They're steep points but they certainly benefit.

apothecary absolutely. it makes the squad he's in incredibly resiliant against small arms fire and forces anti tank fire into them, drawing it away from your other terminators/support units (like the land raider, dreadnoughts, predators and land speeders). The banner I would say is only if points allow. What the banner does is allow belial to join another squad, while still maintaining a very solid offensive output

 

2) What is your preferred build for Belial. I'm leaning toward Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for survivability but I've seen a few drop the Lightning Claws on him. Does anybody actually use the Power Sword and Storm Bolter?

I use lightning claws, because I built him that way. He still acts as a bullet sponge for everything that isn't S8, but with only a 5+ invun. THSS kinda wastes his I5 but makes him, and the squad he joins, much more surviable. The sword+bolter is by far and away the worst choice.

 

3) How many Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield guys would you pack per squad? I'm thinking about two. Any more and I loose too many guns and I have enough horde players ('nids and orcs) around here to mandate taking Storm Bolters to soften things up.

Thing with hordes is that a.) you don't see them enough and b.) you should be packing a lot of cyclones and other template weapons to make a dent in them. However, general consensus i've seen is either 2 THSS per squad (not on the cyclone) or 4 THSS, with the 5th member being a chainfist. I use 2 and my terminators are still very survivable as it is rare people put more than 2 or 3 ap2 wounds on them.

 

4) Is the Power Sword sergeant ever worth it or do you guys always upgrade him? I'm leaning toward Lightning Claws.

in a word? no. replace it. people don't take power weapon tactical sargeants for a reason

 

5) Finally, would a pure shooty squad be out of the question as a backfield objective holding unit? I'm had success with basic terminators in C:SM and it seems to me that cover will account for a lack of Storm Shields while the Storm Bolters let you participate since you probably don't want to leave your objective and risk not making it back.\

it's not out of the question, but you are relegating them to be a backfield unit in whatever game you play. If you pull killpoints in a mission, these guys are going to go down to the lascannons, meltas and plasma of this world pretty damn fast. at least 1 THSS if you're goin to have a backfield squad.

 

I know it's asking a lot but I appreciate all of your time and advice guys.

 

Some other points:

- the cyclone missile launcher is, hands down, your best heavy weapon option. it gives you flexibility at very long range. Those horde armies you mentioned? sit at the back of the board dropping templates on them until they get to you, then mount up in your land raiders and tank shock through them.

- Purist deathwing generally only works with terminators + land raiders. Dreadnoughts tend to be a bit of a liability UNLESS you can get access to forgeworld rules, then you can use the mortis dreadnought with autocannons just like every other damn marine codex. Also makes a good footslogging DW list viable.

- you may want to expand out into other units in the codex - land speeder typhoons and predators offer you gret fire support to fill the gaps in a pure terminator list.

[skink]

1) Are both the banner and apothecary worth it. They're steep points but they certainly benefit.

 

2) What is your preferred build for Belial. I'm leaning toward Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for survivability but I've seen a few drop the Lightning Claws on him. Does anybody actually use the Power Sword and Storm Bolter?

 

3) How many Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield guys would you pack per squad? I'm thinking about two. Any more and I loose too many guns and I have enough horde players ('nids and orcs) around here to mandate taking Storm Bolters to soften things up.

 

4) Is the Power Sword sergeant ever worth it or do you guys always upgrade him? I'm leaning toward Lightning Claws.

 

5) Finally, would a pure shooty squad be out of the question as a backfield objective holding unit? I'm had success with basic terminators in C:SM and it seems to me that cover will account for a lack of Storm Shields while the Storm Bolters let you participate since you probably don't want to leave your objective and risk not making it back.\

 

 

1. Yes. People seem to be favouring the Apothecary over the Standard Bearer which I guess makes sense; one successful FnP and he's made back his points. However, the difference in damage output is remarkable if you include the Standard. DW squads aren't actually that killy, especially if you don't get the charge (which considering how slow they are is perfectly possible). The Standard is like having permanent Counter Attack. That's worth 25 points all day long to me.

 

2. Horses for courses. I really like the claws, as I5 is unique to my list, and 6 PW attacks (re-rolling to wound) is very useful to me, and, if you're facing lots of hordes, potentially for you. I am making a TH/SS version right now however, as a plasma soaker would be useful. Try them both, I don't think the faceless internet can really answer that for you!

 

3 and 4. Depends on the squad. Lots of lists I see replicate the same loadout, and whilst I can see the logic in redundancy, I personally find it boring and slightly inflexible. I like having two CC squads (3 TH/SS, 1 LC, 1 SB/CF/Cyclone) and two tactical squads (SB/PW sergeant, 1 LC, 2 SB/PF, 1 SB/CF/Cyclone) (combining redundancy and variation!). That's 8 bolter shots, 5 or 7 PW attacks at I4 (which can have wounds allocated onto them so your fists can still swing) and then 6 or 9 PF attacks to mop up. That's the balance I like, but again, horses for courses.

 

5. Yes, because lots of things will come to them; they certainly won't be sitting around doing nothing!! You can always start them further forward, and then walk them back as the game develops. If they are sat on an objective all game, the opponent knows exactly what they are going to be doing for up to 7 turns, and can just turbo boost to contest on their last turn. At least if they're wandering around to start with you can keep them guessing for a few turns. However, we have lots of fortifications on our boards, so it's often easy to put an objective in 3++ cover; free storm shields for me might not be applicable for you.

 

There's been lots of good advice in the above posts and I think we as DW players are lucky in that there isn't really a completely awful build, just some that work better for folks than others!

[IanSturrock]

I'm in a minority in preferring twin lightning claws on Belial. He shouldn't be catching lascannon shots anyway (you have a load of grunts with storm shields for that), or getting into BTB contact with anyone who can ID him, because even a 3++ save isn't good enough if the consequence of a failed save is instant death. I use him at the back of my command squad, so it's harder for powerfists etc. to get into BTB contact with him, or I split him off and use him by himself to bully a weak squad that can't ID him anyway. For me, the prospect of 5 x Initiative 5 lightning claw attacks on the charge is reason enough to keep the claws.

[Ruthven]

Get some magnets and a dremel tool and do both TH/SS and Claws like I did! :D I used a GK sword instead of a hammer because I thought it would look cooler, but I play it as though it were a TH. That way I can field him however I like and not have to worry about it so much.

 

As fast as firepower goes, I tend to do heavy flamers inside my landraiders, and cyclones for walking/deep striking units. My command squad is all th/ss, and then I usually do 2-3 other TH/SS terminators inside the other squads as people have said above, but if you're not against being spammy with your models, all th/ss and cmls can be pretty formidable...

[riddles]

5. Yes, because lots of things will come to them; they certainly won't be sitting around doing nothing!! You can always start them further forward, and then walk them back as the game develops. If they are sat on an objective all game, the opponent knows exactly what they are going to be doing for up to 7 turns, and can just turbo boost to contest on their last turn. At least if they're wandering around to start with you can keep them guessing for a few turns. However, we have lots of fortifications on our boards, so it's often easy to put an objective in 3++ cover; free storm shields for me might not be applicable for you.

 

With regards to turbo boosting on the last turn to contest - most objectives are on 25 or 40mm bases. It is possible to surround one of these bases with a terminator squad, meaning that contesting without charging the terminators is impossible, as you must be at least 1 inch from an enemy model and the 40mm base is nearly 2 inches across.

 

i'm not a fan of specialising my terminator squads. they are the workhorses of the army who will need to fill multiple roles in any given game. By have a standardised loadout (I take 2xthss, cml/pf/sb, cf/sb and pf/sb);

- you make the most of wound allocation

- your terminator squads can fill into anything in a pinch - counter charge, shooting support, objective claimer etc.

- this is the most important one: target priority. If someone lines up against me with a couple of tlc/thss squads and a couple of all shooty squads, which do you think i shoot first? the shooty squads are significantly easier to kill be ap2 means something, and power weapon wielding units (of which there are quite a few) mean something. Because you need DW squads to claim objectives, it is more flexible to make your opponent react to your deployment and threat, rather than making target priority easy. The same goes for all THSS squads. what you lack in anti horde you gain in survivability.

[march10k]

My bels has the claws, I5 is too valuable, and bels overall isn't so expensive that you have to turtle him up. I, too, use him as a bullet sponge for anything not S8. He's often on his last wound before melee anyway, so a 3++ isn't likely to grant him a second round of melee, and is actually likely to get him killed without ever swinging the hammer!

 

I love the SB/PS sergeant, I would LOVE to field squads with:

 

2xPS/SB, PS/SS, CF/SB, PS/(heavy weapon). I hate losing a shooty termie before he gets a chance to attack in melee! TBH, I think being able to take 3-4 shooty termies without overloading on ASL fists would give us greater balance, being able to do horde control in the shooting phase and MEQ control in melee. As things stand now, we need either lightning claws or a storm shield to have a big enough advantage over MEQs in melee, and that means no shooting. But I4 power weapon attacks, we get to have our shooting without risking losing models before I1 in melee.

 

Both command squad upgrades are worth it, although I would say that the banner is best used with thunderhammers, where it increases their attack count by 50%, versus 33% for claws.

 

To catch the odd lascannon shot, one storm shield is okay on shooty squads, but if you're taking primarily assault termies, take at least two, and take a third as your CML model, if that's the heavy weapon you choose.

 

I wouldn't be against a shooty squad for backfield objective camping. 2+/4++ is pretty stout, and ten boltgun shots plus a pair of missiles is more shooting than you can reasonably expect from an objective camping scoring unit.

 

JMHO, YMMV

[Mercy 0f Spades]

Hmm im pretty sure you dont get fnp and ignore 1 failed save. Still totaly worth it though

 

 

They definitely give the ignore one failed save, I remember reading FNP too, but flicking through the codex, its not there to be seen, so I may have got that bit wrong.

 

 

Check the FAQ. It's right on the first page. It now acts just like every other Narthecium.

[Mercy 0f Spades]

1. Absolutely! I love the extra attacks the banner gives my squad! Since I run the Master of the Deathwing with x2 Lightning Claws that gives him 6 attacks at initiative 5 that usually hit on 3's and reroll failed wounds. That's enough to make any other Space Marine army think twice before playing fistycuffs with them. Also the FNP from the Apothecary is a must seeing as how the termie only have one wound... unlike certain Paladins I know... But don't worry about what our codex says- the FAQ changed the Narthecium so that it only gives FNP... just like every other space marine Narthecium.

 

2. Like I stated above those 6 Lightning Claw attacks at Initiative 5 is nothing to joke about. I hate that he doesn't have an Iron Halo but if you stick him in a group of Deathwing then you can allocate wounds from shooting just fine. Besides, the only thing you'd have to really worry about as far as IC killers go are large groups of charging Death Company and Thunder Wolf Cavalry. Everything else you should be able to handle just fine.

 

3. As far as the Stormshields go I only use one. It seems to work pretty good at soaking up power weapons and Plasma shots. Or maybe I just get really lucky with my dice rolls? It should be said that I put my TH&SS on my Standard Bearer. Just makes the dude look awesome!

 

4. In short; no. I run him with x2 Lightning Claws and haven't regretted it yet.

 

5. Unlike most of the guys here... well everywhere... I have a love obsession with my Assault Cannon. It's the second most dependable weapon I've ever had the privilege of using in 40k. So many Grey Hunters have fallen to those big barrels! The CML is nice.. but come on! You know that huge minigun looks so cool!

[smellyfox]

5. Unlike most of the guys here... well everywhere... I have a love obsession with my Assault Cannon. It's the second most dependable weapon I've ever had the privilege of using in 40k. So many Grey Hunters have fallen to those big barrels! The CML is nice.. but come on! You know that huge minigun looks so cool!

 

You are not alone brother! There is no cooler Terminator IMO than one toting a massive minigun! Just a shame about the cost.....

[riddles]

and the lack of thss or tlc option. plus the cyclone lets you still shoot the storm bolter if you have one.

[Brother Kovash]

Try playing with both the TLC and TH/SS versions of Belial. You'll find that playing against certain armies you'll favor one over the other. For extra laughs, include an Interrogator-Chaplain in his command squad, along with apothecary and standard bearer. On the charge, with Belial you'll get 6 I5 attacks, re-rolling failed hits AND failed wounds. You might lose friends over this tactic, so be careful.

 

I currently only use one dreadnought in my army lists, armed with multi-melta and PF/SB. He comes into play with a drop pod, which allows me to target a serious threat with his heavy weapon, as well as focus some of my enemies attention away from my main force. Another tactic is to use a dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher as part of your fire support hidden in the back of your deployment zone. I've done this playing with regular greenwing armies, keeping a dreadnought near an objective with a tactical squad to provide heavy fire support across the battlefield.

 

In pure Deathwing lists, dreadnoughts definitely have their uses. If you constantly go up against horde armies, try using one with an assault cannon and heavy flamer. Remember, walkers are relentless, so you can fire all your weapons and still charge in the assault phase. This enables you to tie up an enemy unit until one of your DW squads can lend some assistance.

[EPK]

For extra laughs, include an Interrogator-Chaplain in his command squad, along with apothecary and standard bearer. On the charge, with Belial you'll get 6 I5 attacks, re-rolling failed hits AND failed wounds. You might lose friends over this tactic, so be careful.

 

And if you need to save some points and don't plan on a deep strike, you can always use a regular power armored Chaplain to the same effect.

 

I'm also in the camp that uses Belial with DLC. I feel the rest of the squad - all SS/TH - has that department covered and as mentioned it's nice to have those I5 hits. As stated, Apoth and banner are great and I'd say should be standard - that squad is a beast with all that.

[Netfreakk]

I don't know if you need more advice, but here's what I think:

 

1) Are both the banner and apothecary worth it. They're steep points but they certainly benefit.

Apoth and Banner is definitely worth it

 

2) What is your preferred build for Belial. I'm leaning toward Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for survivability but I've seen a few drop the Lightning Claws on him. Does anybody actually use the Power Sword and Storm Bolter?

As stated, I enjoy the I5 as it's too invaluable to soften up anything so your hammers will have a better chance of surviving (as they tend to take the heavy hits anyways)

 

3) How many Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield guys would you pack per squad? I'm thinking about two. Any more and I loose too many guns and I have enough horde players ('nids and orcs) around here to mandate taking Storm Bolters to soften things up.

I usually use 2 TH/SS. One on my Sarg and one on a normal terminator. This way I get to allocate the wounds better. Sarg / THSS / Special weapons / 2 left overs

 

4) Is the Power Sword sergeant ever worth it or do you guys always upgrade him? I'm leaning toward Lightning Claws.

As stated above I use TH/SS

 

5) Finally, would a pure shooty squad be out of the question as a backfield objective holding unit? I'm had success with basic terminators in C:SM and it seems to me that cover will account for a lack of Storm Shields while the Storm Bolters let you participate since you probably don't want to leave your objective and risk not making it back.

A pure shooty squad is nice if you're leaving them back home, but with avg 24" range, it's really situational if they'll even see any action, so it's up to you.

 

*edit* Colored my text.

[shortysl]

If you listen to only one piece of advice today, make it the piece about the Standard and Apothecary. Pay the points for both and stick them in a Crusader with Belial because i promise you, they will mince ANYTHING they hit. My regular opponent is a Blood Angel, and even he is afraid of that unit. The psychological damage a unit can do is often as important as the physical damage.