Clarification on Instant Death

[Jaigo]

As I couldn´t find a thread about this, I started this one.

 

As I played, I came across various versions on how to apply instant death. I am very confused now.

 

This is as I see it, so please correct me where needed.

 

Instant death: ( ID )

 

ID is applied when STR exceeds T by a factor x2 ( example: 8 STR hitting a T 4 model )

If the model has >1 wonds and suffers an unsaved wound ID applies.

 

This counts for both shooting and melee

[Ming]

Yes. And....

 

IIRR you also have to remove known ID casualties first from wound groups before allocating excess wounds to the group. It reduces the ability for wound allocation abuse issues.

[JamesI]

If you have 2 members of a group taking an ID wound, you have to put the wound on an uninjured model first.

 

ID can also come from wounds from weapons that say they inflict ID (such as the slaanesh demonweapon as an example)

[fivepointedstar]

If you have 2 members of a group taking an ID wound, you have to put the wound on an uninjured model first.

 

ID can also come from wounds from weapons that say they inflict ID (such as the slaanesh demonweapon as an example)

Same thing like a passed psychic test on a force weapon.

[Jaigo]

but both in melee and due to ranged wapon inflicted wounds allow armor saves.

Also if a creature is monsterous or with power wapons, including special wapons, inv saves are allowed.

Unless specified otherwise?

[JamesI]

but both in melee and due to ranged wapon inflicted wounds allow armor saves.

Also if a creature is monsterous or with power wapons, including special wapons, inv saves are allowed.

Unless specified otherwise?

Saves are allowed against ID weapons, unless the weapon's rules disallow it (such as power fists, Weapons with AP that breaks the armor, weapons that disallow cover or invul saves)

[DarkGuard]

but both in melee and due to ranged wapon inflicted wounds allow armor saves.

Also if a creature is monsterous or with power wapons, including special wapons, inv saves are allowed.

Unless specified otherwise?

Saves are allowed against ID weapons, unless the weapon's rules disallow it (such as power fists, Weapons with AP that breaks the armor, weapons that disallow cover or invul saves)

 

This is the biggest mistake in ID application I've seen in gaming, with many people claiming that ID ignores armour. Of course, it's a mistake, as most ID weapons just happen to ignore the armour anyway from a different attribute of theirs, so it's an easy mistake to make for those new to the game or even those who have played it so many times.

[Ming]

So yes, a S8AP4 hit on a SM still allows for the marine to take his armor save.

 

A S8AP4 hit on a captain or other multiwound T4 model would kill it if it fails the save.

[Arikel]

Yes. And....

 

IIRR you also have to remove known ID casualties first from wound groups before allocating excess wounds to the group. It reduces the ability for wound allocation abuse issues.

 

This is not correct, you allocate wounds, then roll saves, then remove casualties based on how many unsaved wounds the group suffered. IF ID wounds were not saved, they are applied first and remove full models from the group before you apply regular wounds to multiwound models though.

 

Edit: An example. A squad of 10 ork knobs is shot by a 10 man dev squad with 4 las cannons and 5 bolters and a bolt pistol. All shots hit and wound, so 4 las cannon wounds and 11 bolter shots. The nob group has 4 regular nobs, 3 nobs with power klaws, and 3 nobs with individual equipment so it has 5 wound allocation groups. The ork player allocates the 4 lascannon shots to the non upgraded nobs, then allocates one bolter shot to each other nob ( 3 to the power klaw orcs, one each on the 3 individual nobs. 5 bolter shots are left to be distributed. It is perfectly legal for the ork player to allocate 4 of these bolter shots to the non upgraded nobs, and the last bolter shot on group of his choice. Saves are then made. Even if the non upgraded nobs fail(or are unable to take saves aginst the lascannon shots due to to armour piercing) all 8 saves, the 4 extra bolter wounds that were allocated to them cannot be allocated to another wound group.

[ShinyRhino]

Yes. And....

 

IIRR you also have to remove known ID casualties first from wound groups before allocating excess wounds to the group. It reduces the ability for wound allocation abuse issues.

 

This is not correct, you allocate wounds, then roll saves, then remove casualties based on how many unsaved wounds the group suffered. IF ID wounds were not saved, they are applied first and remove full models from the group before you apply regular wounds to multiwound models though.

 

Edit: An example. A squad of 10 ork knobs is shot by a 10 man dev squad with 4 las cannons and 5 bolters and a bolt pistol. All shots hit and wound, so 4 las cannon wounds and 11 bolter shots. The nob group has 4 regular nobs, 3 nobs with power klaws, and 3 nobs with individual equipment so it has 5 wound allocation groups. The ork player allocates the 4 lascannon shots to the non upgraded nobs, then allocates one bolter shot to each other nob ( 3 to the power klaw orcs, one each on the 3 individual nobs. 5 bolter shots are left to be distributed. It is perfectly legal for the ork player to allocate 4 of these bolter shots to the non upgraded nobs, and the last bolter shot on group of his choice. Saves are then made. Even if the non upgraded nobs fail(or are unable to take saves aginst the lascannon shots due to to armour piercing) all 8 saves, the 4 extra bolter wounds that were allocated to them cannot be allocated to another wound group.

 

Arikel is correct. The rulebook is pretty clear about it (p26):

 

"If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that

inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible,

remove one unwounded model for each unsaved

wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as

normal (this is done for each group of identical

multiple-wound models). This rule is designed to stop

players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a

model that has suffered instant death anyway."

 

So in Arikel's example if those 4 regular nobs did have 4 lascannon and 4 bolter shots applied to them, and the Nobz saved 1 of the 4 lascannon wounds and 2 of 4 bolter wounds, all 4 still die. Three to Instant Death, and one to the loss of two wounds.

[radens]

another question - guy have 3 nobz, all with different equipment, 2 of them are already wounded, one is fresh. they get hit with a lascannon - can the ork player allocate the ID wound on one of the wounded models, or has he take down the healthy one?

[JamesI]

another question - guy have 3 nobz, all with different equipment, 2 of them are already wounded, one is fresh. they get hit with a lascannon - can the ork player allocate the ID wound on one of the wounded models, or has he take down the healthy one?

Since they are all armed differently, he can assign it to whichever group he wants, so he can put it on a wounded model.

[Stopher]

another question - guy have 3 nobz, all with different equipment, 2 of them are already wounded, one is fresh. they get hit with a lascannon - can the ork player allocate the ID wound on one of the wounded models, or has he take down the healthy one?

Since they are all armed differently, he can assign it to whichever group he wants, so he can put it on a wounded model.

 

So just a clarification if they all have the same wargear and they take an ID wound they have to take a healthy one, and the not an already wounded one?

[JamesI]

another question - guy have 3 nobz, all with different equipment, 2 of them are already wounded, one is fresh. they get hit with a lascannon - can the ork player allocate the ID wound on one of the wounded models, or has he take down the healthy one?

Since they are all armed differently, he can assign it to whichever group he wants, so he can put it on a wounded model.

 

So just a clarification if they all have the same wargear and they take an ID wound they have to take a healthy one, and the not an already wounded one?

Yes, if no one is different, a ID wound has to go on a unwounded model,