Loyalist Luna Wolves

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus, I agree with the marines arn't immortal stance, but I think you dont give them long enough life spans. 200-300 years is a long time, but that should be a standard career, akin to a Colonel retiring after 30 years in service. If a marine never saw combat, in my 40K, they'd live to be around 500-600 before they began to age, and then it would be a very rapid process, with only the rarest exceptions living longer, healthy. Except for the Blood Angels, who stay 17 for eternity.

 

I also think due to the 'first-generation' geneseed given to the legions, and the unrestricted numbers of said legions, that the older chapters and legions would have higher quality geneseed. The traitors frequently refer to loyalists as thinbloods, and I think there is some weight to that. After the reforms and geneseed became so regulated that samples given to new chapters drawn entirely from chapters who had no geneseed drawn from the original, more potent geneseed would have decreased efficiency and lower life spans. Which might do well to explain why Logan Grimnar, Dante, Marneus Calgar, and Cassius are so old, because their geneseed is of legion stock, and not a copy of a copy.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Legatus, I agree with the marines arn't immortal stance, but I think you dont give them long enough life spans. 200-300 years is a long time, but that should be a standard career, akin to a Colonel retiring after 30 years in service. If a marine never saw combat, in my 40K, they'd live to be around 500-600 before they began to age, and then it would be a very rapid process, with only the rarest exceptions living longer, healthy. Except for the Blood Angels, who stay 17 for eternity.

 

I also think due to the 'first-generation' geneseed given to the legions, and the unrestricted numbers of said legions, that the older chapters and legions would have higher quality geneseed. The traitors frequently refer to loyalists as thinbloods, and I think there is some weight to that. After the reforms and geneseed became so regulated that samples given to new chapters drawn entirely from chapters who had no geneseed drawn from the original, more potent geneseed would have decreased efficiency and lower life spans. Which might do well to explain why Logan Grimnar, Dante, Marneus Calgar, and Cassius are so old, because their geneseed is of legion stock, and not a copy of a copy.

 

Actually, the fluff is somewhat inconsistent on the potency of geneseed over the millennium. Chaos claims and dreams of all powerful Astartes Legions aside, the fluff supports the idea of geneseed being just as potent in the 41st millenium as the 31st.

Remember, the Legions used accelerated recruitment methods to meet their recruitment needs, which actually led to DEGENERACY in the geneseed. That is one of the changes made with the shift to Chapters.

It also seems that each geneseed maintains its strength, as it grows from the glands in the marines, hence how one can make fully functional Chapters from marines.

In addition, the Legions came from the "canned stock" the Emperor used from the then scattered Primarchs: In essence the same geneseed (in most cases) used by Chapters ten millennium later. They did not wander up to the Primarchs with a tube, a jar, and say "Time to top off the ol' Genestock, sir."

Legion stock IS Chapter Stock, by and large.

 

There are examples of degeneracy over the years, but these are often due to doing something ill advised, like drawing blood from brutally murdered Primarch(Blood Angels) or trying to accelerate recruitment procedures (Raven Guard) or wonky experiments (Cursed Founding) that make for rotten stock.

Its the methods involving the stock, not the stock itself, that affects "potency."

 

On Topic:

Although its been covered fairly well here, I don't think Loyalist Luna Wolves fit very well into the 40K mythos.

Having them kicking around the Imperium AS Luna Wolves without the Inqusition, Cadians, and all those Space Marines Chapters that recall the traitors original name all lining up to beat them down is eyebrow raising.

Having them "do it in secret" is also problematic. Although the idea of them masquerading as a Loyalist Chapter and hunting Chaos traitors is appealing, how it would work when they showed up out of blue going "hey guys,we have our millennial old codes and things are a little weird, hows it goinWHY ARE THEY SHOOTING AT US!?"

I suppose Rogue Inquisitors are always a tried and true plot hole filler.

Not impossible to work in, just tricky.

[Simo429]

as for the quote

"they live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle"

 

Where is it from? I can only see it as you quoting yourself, I may have misread.

I had given full citations in this post. It is from the current (5th Edition) Codex Space Wolves, page 10, last paragraph in that page. The line is originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 6.

 

And yes, that does translate to "after those several hundred years, they will die of old age".

 

 

While time in the Eye of Terror flows different it doesn't always mean more slowly. What also about the traitors such as Abaddon that have spent long periods out of the Eye of Terror? How long have 12 black crusades taken? He was already old when he went in there.

Perhaps you should not just see the warp as having a slower or faster progression of time. The concept of time can not really be adequately translated to the warp. Plus, being in the warp without protection can also cause it to alter one's physical properties.

 

The Alpha Legion Index Astartes included a few comments on the unnatural Chaos Marine longevity:

 

"It has never been established if members of the Alpha Legion exhibit the same unnatural longevity as other Chaos Space Marines, who can apparently live for many thousands of years. This phenomenon is generally attributed to the Traitor Legions' existence in the Eye of Terror, where the laws of time and space do not apply. Thus it should follow that the Alpha Legion should not be affected. However, if Alpha Legion Space Marines have more normal life spans, then one must ask how losses are replaced. In his address to the Ikrilla Conclave, an impassioned Inquisitor Kravin warned, "The only possible answer is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium.""

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha legion, "The Ikrilla Conclave".)

Personally I think you are making big leaps from certain bits of fluff that support your opinion while disregarding others.

 

Lets look at what doesn't support you.

There have been Chaos warbands who have bene pillaging the imperium for 10,000 years real space time. In that time is it likely that they have only spent a brief amount of time out of the eye or terror or warp? If they have how can they be seen as the biggest threat to the imperium?

 

We also have the quotes from Horus Rising which specifically says that Space Marines are immortal.

 

There are exceptions in almost every legion to the fact that space marines cells can survive longer than the 2-300 years that you seem to be suggesting is their life expectancy. From Dreadnoughts, to chapter masters to Chaplains there are multiple exceptions. These exceptions range from doubule to 4 times the life expectancy that you are suggesting.

 

Finally there has never been evidence of a Space Marine dying in their bed. Poisoned, mutilated, but never just died as far as I know.

 

GW are loose with there idea of immortality. Look at High Elves, said to be immortal and yet there has been at least 1 Pheonix king to die in his bed. How is that the case? Never really explained as far as I know.

 

There certainly isn't any overall evidence either way but you can't argue one side so succintly while refusing to take not of the evidence on the other side.

[ScottishSmurf96]

If extreme age affects marines so badly then how are CSM from the heresy still knocking about? Maybe chaos kept them alive but meh...

[AGPO]

That has been covered sooooo many times. The fact they live within the Eye of Terror (i.e. within the Warp) means that time does not flow normally for them.

[Legatus]

Personally I think you are making big leaps from certain bits of fluff that support your opinion while disregarding others.

I am not making any "leaps" from that quote from the Codex Space Wolves. Space Marines that are not killed in battle will die of natural causes after several hundred years. Period. Nothing to interpret. Blood Angels have increased life spans, and commonly reach a thousand years of age. Straight forward. Chaos Marines have unnatural life spans, which is attributed to the warp. There really is no ambiguity here!

 

 

Lets look at what doesn't support you.

There have been Chaos warbands who have bene pillaging the imperium for 10,000 years real space time. In that time is it likely that they have only spent a brief amount of time out of the eye or terror or warp? If they have how can they be seen as the biggest threat to the imperium?

That is fully explained by "the warp did it", and for Warbands outside of the Eye of Terror is addressed in the passage I quoted in my previous post. Another easy explanation is that GW simply does not think of all the logistics and issues when writing a cool backstory for one of the traitor forces, but that would be a lazy explanation. So I'll refer to the "warp did it" and the quote in the previous post instead.

 

 

We also have the quotes from Horus Rising which specifically says that Space Marines are immortal.

I would personally see that as a mistake on the author's part, since it is explicitely contradicted by twenty years of background, but it is also possible that it was intentionally written to highlight just how little idea the scientists really had about Marines back then. The Great Crusade lasted for about 200 years, but Space Marines only really start showing signs of advanced ageing after 300 years. So throughout the entire Great Crusade there had never been a Space Marine showing any signs of advanced ageing. So, when after 100-150 years of observation the newly created Space Marines are all still in full health, that might prompt statements that they are apparently functionally immortal.

 

But we do not rely on information from a time just after Space Marines have been invented. We have ten thousand years of history. And the Codices for Space Marines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves throughout the editions explain that Space Marines have a natural life expectancy of several hundred years.

 

 

There are exceptions in almost every legion to the fact that space marines cells can survive longer than the 2-300 years that you seem to be suggesting is their life expectancy.

I am not. I'm not sure how M2C got that idea. But after 300 years, a Marine would start to be considered as "old". The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines explained that after 300 years Space Marines start to show signs of advanced ageing. The oldest Living Ultramarine is Cassius at an age of almost 400. Logan Grimnar is almost 700 years old, but is said to be somewhat of a rare exception (except for Ulrik, of course, who is even older). Dreadnoughts don't count, btw, since they are kept in stasis when they are not in battle.

 

 

Finally there has never been evidence of a Space Marine dying in their bed.

"As Space Marines, they will live for hundreds of years, if they do not die in battle, and they will voyage through the stars to fight in the name of the Emperor."

(5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 10)

 

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 12)

 

That means: "After they have lived that long, they die of natural causes." It means Space Marines die of old age. That is what that means.

[Simo429]

There have been mistakes in the horus heresy series (A naked World eater ripping out the spine of a battle plate coated Custodes) but there have also been massive retcons as ADB raises in the preface of Void Stalker.

 

There have also been major retcons between editions and because something has been held true twenty years ago does not mean it is now.

 

As I said although yes you point out the codices do point out that Marines will only live for 100's of years there hasn't been an example in any fluff of this actually happening.

 

My point is that its hard to say whether a Space Marine is immortal because they never leave that long, the odds of a Space Marine dying might be a 1000 to one but when you fight a 1000+ battles it becomes a statistical certainty.

 

My other point wasn't regarding what was happening IN the eye of terror or the warp but how long traitor marines have been on campaings in real space. Surely in 10000 years of war they have fought for a long time in real space?

 

We are going to continue to go along in circles because we are too entrentched in our views, I think it is certainly possible for Astartes to be immortal. I do not believe that their cells would ever stop reproducing. You don't. Hopefully one day we will get a definitive answer.

[Legatus]

There have also been major retcons between editions and because something has been held true twenty years ago does not mean it is now.

The 5th Edition Codices of the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels certainly still say the same thing they did back in 2nd Edition. And they were both released after 'Horus Rising', which included the statements about Space Marine immortality. So apparently that has not been adopted into the 40K game background. If you prefer we can assume that GW has now created two separate continuities, one for the Warhammer 40K game background and one for the Horus Heresy novels. But I would rather say that the statement in 'Horus Rising' was based either on ignorance on the part of Dan Abnett or due to the limited knowledge about Space Marine lifespans within the Imperium at that time.

 

 

As I said although yes you point out the codices do point out that Marines will only live for 100's of years there hasn't been an example in any fluff of this actually happening.

And why would there be? That is not exactly the most exciting thing to read about in a Codex. The point is that while the fluff does not give a specific account of one particular Space Marine as he dies of old age, the fluff explicitely states that that is what happens naturally.

 

 

My point is that its hard to say whether a Space Marine is immortal because they never leave that long, the odds of a Space Marine dying might be a 1000 to one but when you fight a 1000+ battles it becomes a statistical certainty.

What the Codices do say, however, is that all Chapetrs employ Space Marines of advanced age in non-combat roles. So if Space Marines actually were immortal, then every Chapter would have administrators, advisors and artificers of thousands of years of age. But they don't have that. Instead, the Codex Blood Angels points out that thanks to their increased life expectancy (which incidentally also only makes sense if other Marines are not immortal) they have much more experienced artificers than other Chapters.

 

 

My other point wasn't regarding what was happening IN the eye of terror or the warp but how long traitor marines have been on campaings in real space. Surely in 10000 years of war they have fought for a long time in real space?

Yes, but the warp does not only affect one as long as one is in the warp. Once you have remained there for a longer period of time, especially if unprotected, it will have alltered you physically. As for the specific examples of really old traitor Marines: Abaddon? He has blessings from all of the four Chaos gods. Khârn? He was brought back to life after supposedly having been killed on the walls of the Imperial palace. Lucius...? You get the picture. Why would you even think that such characters would still be bound by the normal limitations of a Space Marine life expectancy?

 

 

We are going to continue to go along in circles because we are too entrentched in our views, I think it is certainly possible for Astartes to be immortal. I do not believe that their cells would ever stop reproducing. You don't. Hopefully one day we will get a definitive answer.

We have one.

[Crimson Hawk]

Personally I think you are making big leaps from certain bits of fluff that support your opinion while disregarding others.

I am not making any "leaps" from that quote from the Codex Space Wolves. Space Marines that are not killed in battle will die of natural causes after several hundred years. Period. Nothing to interpret. Blood Angels have increased life spans, and commonly reach a thousand years of age. Straight forward. Chaos Marines have unnatural life spans, which is attributed to the warp. There really is no ambiguity here!

 

 

Lets look at what doesn't support you.

There have been Chaos warbands who have bene pillaging the imperium for 10,000 years real space time. In that time is it likely that they have only spent a brief amount of time out of the eye or terror or warp? If they have how can they be seen as the biggest threat to the imperium?

That is fully explained by "the warp did it", and for Warbands outside of the Eye of Terror is addressed in the passage I quoted in my previous post. Another easy explanation is that GW simply does not think of all the logistics and issues when writing a cool backstory for one of the traitor forces, but that would be a lazy explanation. So I'll refer to the "warp did it" and the quote in the previous post instead.

 

 

We also have the quotes from Horus Rising which specifically says that Space Marines are immortal.

I would personally see that as a mistake on the author's part, since it is explicitely contradicted by twenty years of background, but it is also possible that it was intentionally written to highlight just how little idea the scientists really had about Marines back then. The Great Crusade lasted for about 200 years, but Space Marines only really start showing signs of advanced ageing after 300 years. So throughout the entire Great Crusade there had never been a Space Marine showing any signs of advanced ageing. So, when after 100-150 years of observation the newly created Space Marines are all still in full health, that might prompt statements that they are apparently functionally immortal.

 

But we do not rely on information from a time just after Space Marines have been invented. We have ten thousand years of history. And the Codices for Space Marines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves throughout the editions explain that Space Marines have a natural life expectancy of several hundred years.

 

 

There are exceptions in almost every legion to the fact that space marines cells can survive longer than the 2-300 years that you seem to be suggesting is their life expectancy.

I am not. I'm not sure how M2C got that idea. But after 300 years, a Marine would start to be considered as "old". The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines explained that after 300 years Space Marines start to show signs of advanced ageing. The oldest Living Ultramarine is Cassius at an age of almost 400. Logan Grimnar is almost 700 years old, but is said to be somewhat of a rare exception (except for Ulrik, of course, who is even older). Dreadnoughts don't count, btw, since they are kept in stasis when they are not in battle.

 

 

Finally there has never been evidence of a Space Marine dying in their bed.

"As Space Marines, they will live for hundreds of years, if they do not die in battle, and they will voyage through the stars to fight in the name of the Emperor."

(5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 10)

 

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 12)

 

That means: "After they have lived that long, they die of natural causes." It means Space Marines die of old age. That is what that means.

God. We know from Salamander that they can live for 10000 years, somehow, and also, to return to the point that started this debate, it says in Angels of Darkness that the Chaplains can keep the Fallen alive almost indefinitely, so GK certainly can. End of this debate, hopefully.

To return to the topic proper, I think that the idea is brilliant, and you could pull it off; the penitent crusade to end the threat of the Black Legion, is most plausible. And if they fail, they'll get wiped out anyway, win/win for the imperium.

[Legatus]

We know from Salamander that they can live for 10000 years, somehow

The warp, that's how. At least the Mrine himself mentions that a "storm" was responsible for leaving his ship stranded on that planet. Or perhaps he had been hibernating for most of that time due to the sus-an membrane. Whichever you prefer. The important point is that the Salamanders finding him themselvses wonder how that could be possible.

 

 

it says in Angels of Darkness that the Chaplains can keep the Fallen alive almost indefinitely

That is because they are kept in stasis when they are not being interrogated. At least Luther is.

[Kol Saresk]

Legatus is right about the Salamander one. I was reading the last novel(Nocturne) and it made me have to go back and re-read the others. Anyway, it points out that Gravius was in some sort of hibernation pattern. Whether it was Sus-an coma or some extended manipulation of the Astartes' rest cycle of shutting off parts of their brain one at a time is unclear. It also says that him devouring the gene-seed of his fellow Marines affected his biology in some way and that this is what actually killed his mental capacity so even if they found him in a biologically healthy condition, he still would have died from the sheer amount of genetic memory that he absorbed to keep it all alive.

 

And there was also the fact that the mortals had descendants who were generations after the crash. While this would seem like it supports the "Space Marines can live forever" and it actually goes against it because the "natives" didn't even know the Salamander was there. They forgot. Which would help imply that he was in some sort of hibernation status. And since his body had atrophied around him, it is also safe to say that it was a completely mental form of hibernation because his mind was intact as it could be while fighting to retain his identity but was also able to keep his body going long enough to actually atrophy rather than be preserved like Zso Sahaal of the Night Lords who was in a complete Sus-an membrane coma.

[Octavulg]

Regarding the OP:

 

I wouldn't do it. Being lost in the warp is the default method for dragging heresy-era things into modern 40K. Everyone and their cousin has thought of it at one point or another. It offers nothing, and costs much.

 

If you want a chapter that has to deal with being Luna Wolves, have the geneseed be used in the Dark Founding or Cursed Founding and have the chapter discover this and have to deal with it (you can be explicit or implicit about this - implicit is better, IMO).

 

If you want a chapter that is on the border of being traitors due to the influence of their geneseed, do the above but just hint at the knowledge.

 

If you want a chapter like the Luna Wolves, just imitate them.

 

If you like the color scheme, rip it off.

 

If you really want guys who were part of the Luna Wolves, have them be a Chaotic group that did the opposite of the Black Legion - they regressed in rejecting Horus, and now basically try to pretend the whole Heresy never happened.

 

If you want your Marines to have totally been in the Heresy and been awesome, slap yourself until you don't any more. :lol:

 

Almost everything that what you propose offers, you can do in an alternative fashion that is more original, more interesting, and that possesses more room for individual touches.

 

Regarding Space Marines getting old:

 

Legatus is right, and the fact that something is not discussed in detail doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't know much about Space Marines' post-battle actions, either. Doesn't mean they don't get back on the ships somehow.

[gogmagog]

I always understood that Space Marines were immortal but that death in battle will eventually claim them.

[Bocheebs]

After 9000 years in the warp they would have be affected in some way by it. Even the lost Space Wolves 13th Company has learnt to use certain attributes they have developed after living in the warp for so long. If you gave them a slight Legion of the Damned slant that could be cool. They know that they will never be forgiven by the Emperor or their brother legions and so fight at the rim worlds and at the eye of terror trying to bring honour to their disgraced legion.

 

Power to you champ!

[Crimson Hawk]

After 9000 years in the warp they would have be affected in some way by it. Even the lost Space Wolves 13th Company has learnt to use certain attributes they have developed after living in the warp for so long. If you gave them a slight Legion of the Damned slant that could be cool. They know that they will never be forgiven by the Emperor or their brother legions and so fight at the rim worlds and at the eye of terror trying to bring honour to their disgraced legion.

 

Power to you champ!

^this