Under the eight-pointed star -- or not?!

[Jay Taint]

:D

Let me start with a disclaimer. Yes, I did use the forum search; Yes, I'm sure I could have done better; and No, I didn't find anything helpful. I'm not saying there's nothing relevant to my question though. I just can't locate it. I'm sorry if this has been discussed before ...

 

I spent quite a bit of time modelling Purge havocs that I'll be using as support for a core of Death Guard and Tainted. Now these CSM boxes come with so many bits displaying the eight-pointed star icon, which I got to know as a symbol of, well ... Chaos? Chaos Undivided (only)? I was wondering who'd use it, as the God-specific legions -- Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children -- have got their own God-specific iconography. So would they march under the banner of the eight-pointed star? Or would they not, and rather make use of their own symbols exclusively?

Of course, I know that it's up to me eventually. Everybody's supposed to do as he or she likes. But I'd rather like to know what you guys think or feel. How do you handle it with your troops? Why? Would there be any resources to learn from?

 

Cheers, JT

[minigun762]

I think of it as the generic or default symbol for all of Chaos, in much the same way the Aquila works for the Imperium.

 

In that light, I think you could use it in a cult warband right alongside the god specific icons or you could use it to denote non-cult units within your army.

[the jeske]

a cult/dedicted marine would always work under the banner of his god only and no other god.

[Jay Taint]

I think of it as the generic or default symbol for all of Chaos [...]

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. After all, I believe the arrow-symbol ornaments on (generic) CSM Power Armor, also on Plague Marine models for example, derive from the eight-pointed star icon. I wouldn't expect GW to comply with the fluff too strictly when it comes to sculpting the actual models. But I wouldn't expect them to do it embarrassingly wrong either. So I'd think it is acceptable to have the eight-pointed star icon on dedicated marines as well.

Yet there might be arguments that I don't know about ... Let me know if there's anything to object.

 

Cheers, JT

[King Willy]

I don't think the star really represents any of the gods when used by Chaos Rebels so maybe they use it as a standard to show they worship chaos.

[The.Latros.Sacrum]

I think of it as the generic or default symbol for all of Chaos, in much the same way the Aquila works for the Imperium.

Hit the nail on the head, the star is the generic symbol of Chaos. It is described as being a symbol of the infinite possibilities of Chaos.

 

The.Latros.Sacrum

[TheDarkApostle]

Note that some Chaos Marines might carry insignia not usually considered a part of something they would wear as an act to show an alliance between them and some greater Warlord.

 

Like the Skulltaker terminator in Siege of Vraks carrying the Eye of Horus to denote a possible alliance with Abbadon.

 

TDA

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I must disagree with the theory that the eight pointed star is just the generic symbol for Chaos - after all, the Sons of Malice absolutely refuse to use it and they worship a warp deity.

 

The eight pointed star is the symbol of the four great gods, without favoritism. The Red Corsair and Black Legion type of Chaotic forces, the non-worshipful type, typically use it so that they have the flexibilty of going to any Chaos God for their needs. IE, a Red Corsair might be able to ask Slaanesh to get some leadership in the warband, but he wouldn't be able to do that if he was a full fledged berzerker so he sticks to using the eight-pointed star.

 

Sons of Malice, Legion of Taurus, etc can't use both their god's symbol and the eight pointed star at the same time, though. Similarily, a Plague Marine can't bear the eight pointed star either - once you're in full dedication to your god, you can't ask favors of the others (especially as Nurgle is the only thing keeping that bloated body alive ;) ).

 

Now, you might have some marines that are on the way to becoming full Nurglites, but aren't quite willing to go all the way to Plague Marinedom yet. That would be perfect for bearing the eight pointed star, but there's a reason it isn't modelled on the cult marines :P

[Kol Saresk]

It's not a symbol of generic worship so much as "I haven't made up my mind yet." The Eightfold Path in all of its glory.

[The Colossus]

The star represents the infinite possibilities of Chaos. I could potentially argue that it's a Khornate symbol, having eight points, and eight being Khornes sacred number. It's not a specifically Khornate symbol though.

 

Indeed, it appears on GAmes Workshops studio Noise Marines, and also on the Thousand Sons, both of which are full on cult troops, and we can surely consider them as canon?

 

As an aside, where's that Sons of Malice titbits from?

 

Just my two kraks. :P

[Kol Saresk]

I know it can be found on Lexicanum, but I'm not sure where it came from. Although there should be a citation source.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Sons of Malice is a Black Library reference/tribute to the Sons of Malal, which was a color scheme in an old chaos codex referencing an even older piece of Fantasy Lore that was retconned to be non-canon, rumoredly because GW lost the rights to it after the creator left them. Malal/Malice is NOT canon, nor should it ever be as it is contradictory to much more established (and better) canon on Chaos Lore. It was one of those things where someone tried to be cool by contradicting and one-upping the established Chaos fluff, but it's a poor story in my opinion, and doesn't enrich the universe.

 

As for the original topic, the Chaos star is also commonly referred to as the Pantheon Star. It represents Chaos Undivided—the combined pantheon of the four chaos gods. It does not necessarily include the infinite number of other warp entities. Even followers of specific gods could use it, as their specific god is still part of the greater pantheon. It's a symbol of Chaos worship, and so is appropriate for any chaos worshipper, even if they do not worship all of the chaos powers. Of course, it is most used by Undivided (and Undecided) followers, as they aren't going to use mono-god symbols.

[Kristoff]

Just out of curiosity, but do each of the individual arrows represent one of the Gods (4 Greater, 4 Lesser)?

[Kol Saresk]

The old fluff tried to make it look that way.

 

On the Malal/Malice front, you are right that Malal is no longer canon/fluff. But Malice is. He just isn't a lesser Power. Now he is just a warp entity. Like the Messenger from the Avenging Sons Renegade short stories or Yetsegui from the Blood Gorgons.

[minigun762]

I must disagree with the theory that the eight pointed star is just the generic symbol for Chaos - after all, the Sons of Malice absolutely refuse to use it and they worship a warp deity.

 

The eight pointed star is the symbol of the four great gods, without favoritism. The Red Corsair and Black Legion type of Chaotic forces, the non-worshipful type, typically use it so that they have the flexibilty of going to any Chaos God for their needs. IE, a Red Corsair might be able to ask Slaanesh to get some leadership in the warband, but he wouldn't be able to do that if he was a full fledged berzerker so he sticks to using the eight-pointed star.

 

Interesting thought DAT but I'm not sure I agree. I'm thinking primarily of the Word Bearers who worship Chaos in all of its glory, not just the four ruinous powers.

 

I can't speak of the Legion of Taurus as I'm not familiar with them but the Sons of Malice seem to be more of an exception, being a Chapter dedicated to destroying Chaos with Chaos. It makes sense to me not to worship the thing you're trying to destroy.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The old fluff tried to make it look that way.

 

On the Malal/Malice front, you are right that Malal is no longer canon/fluff. But Malice is. He just isn't a lesser Power. Now he is just a warp entity. Like the Messenger from the Avenging Sons Renegade short stories or Yetsegui from the Blood Gorgons.

 

Technically, nothing Black Library is canon fluff. But I understand that it's just a technicality, and in reality we're all going to accept the parts of their fluff that we like, and reject the stuff we don't.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The star represents the infinite possibilities of Chaos. I could potentially argue that it's a Khornate symbol, having eight points, and eight being Khornes sacred number. It's not a specifically Khornate symbol though.

 

Indeed, it appears on GAmes Workshops studio Noise Marines, and also on the Thousand Sons, both of which are full on cult troops, and we can surely consider them as canon?

 

As an aside, where's that Sons of Malice titbits from?

 

Just my two kraks. :)

:P I could have sworn that all the cult models were without the Chaos Star, my bad. It looks like the Thousand Sons* just used an upgrade kit of some sort on the standard Chaos Marine sprue though, but still, GW did use a full Chaos star on them. Hmmmmm.

 

Sons of Malice despise Chaos as per the short story The Labyrinth though, it's been out a while :P

 

 

*Interestingly enough, I can't find Noise Marines on the GW website :)

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Sorry Minigun, missed your response -

Interesting thought DAT but I'm not sure I agree. I'm thinking primarily of the Word Bearers who worship Chaos in all of its glory, not just the four ruinous powers.

 

Do not the Word Bearers also worship the Chaos Gods without favoritism towards any one god?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I never got that since BL is an offshoot of GW and Forgeworld is an offshoot of GW but Forgeworld is okay to accept as canon but BL is not? Especially since Forgeworld took Percilitor who was originally a Night Lords Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons and turned him into a Word Bearers Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons. But on the one major Daemon Prince hunt that BL was allowed to handle(Voldorius), they actually followed the fluff. So personally I think the whole "BL is evil and since it doesn't jive with my view of 40k so it can't be canon" is whole load of bull hockey. Everyone seems to be okay when Forgeworld makes fluff changes so what's the big deal with BL doing it? Besides, since GW owns the copyrights on 40k, don't they have to okay the fluff/canon changes? So that would mean it still came from GW. Besides, no one considers how many tabletop fans BL actually brings to the table through its "evil, daemonic and unforgivable" fluff with the advertisements in the back of the book that everyone reads because they accidentally skipped over the "About the Author".

 

 

EDIT: There was no pun intended in the writing of this response.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah I never got that since BL is an offshoot of GW and Forgeworld is an offshoot of GW but Forgeworld is okay to accept as canon but BL is not? Especially since Forgeworld took Percilitor who was originally a Night Lords Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons and turned him into a Word Bearers Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons. But on the one major Daemon Prince hunt that BL was allowed to handle(Voldorius), they actually followed the fluff. So personally I think the whole "BL is evil and since it doesn't jive with my view of 40k so it can't be canon" is whole load of bull hockey. Everyone seems to be okay when Forgeworld makes fluff changes so what's the big deal with BL doing it? Besides, since GW owns the copyrights on 40k, don't they have to okay the fluff/canon changes? So that would mean it still came from GW. Besides, no one considers how many tabletop fans BL actually brings to the table through its "evil, daemonic and unforgivable" fluff with the advertisements in the back of the book that everyone reads because they accidentally skipped over the "About the Author".

 

 

EDIT: There was no pun intended in the writing of this response.

 

I think it's more because Forgeworld fluff is written by the same, consistent team. People trust their judgment. BL gives their authors more free reign. They have specifically said that the story comes first, then the tiny details. But I think the biggest reason is that Forge World is doing a good job, whereas some of BL's authors have simply been terrible. That's what I meant by my previous comment. I'm sure we're all going to accept anything Dan Abnett says, or pretty much anyone who's written in the Horus Heresy series. But then there's the Soul Drinker and Blood Angels series, which aren't just bad stories, and don't just mis-represent parts of the lore, but actively re-define, re-interpret, and invent new aspects, many of which contradict existing elements. The Blood Angels from that series are nothing like the Blood Angels we see in any codex, and are barely even space marines. It's more like a sci-fi book that happens to use a lot of the same language as 40k than it is a 40k book. Both it and Codex: Blood Angels can't be cannon at the same time as they are too contradictory.

[The Colossus]

The star represents the infinite possibilities of Chaos. I could potentially argue that it's a Khornate symbol, having eight points, and eight being Khornes sacred number. It's not a specifically Khornate symbol though.

 

Indeed, it appears on GAmes Workshops studio Noise Marines, and also on the Thousand Sons, both of which are full on cult troops, and we can surely consider them as canon?

 

As an aside, where's that Sons of Malice titbits from?

 

Just my two kraks. :)

:P I could have sworn that all the cult models were without the Chaos Star, my bad. It looks like the Thousand Sons* just used an upgrade kit of some sort on the standard Chaos Marine sprue though, but still, GW did use a full Chaos star on them. Hmmmmm.

 

Sons of Malice despise Chaos as per the short story The Labyrinth though, it's been out a while :P

 

 

*Interestingly enough, I can't find Noise Marines on the GW website :)

 

 

 

The Noise Marines are on mine, under the troops bit, next to the Khornes icon guy. To be fair, the ones that have it are the regular bolter marines. The Khorne icon guy's icon looks pretty similar to a Chaos Star.

 

Ah I haven't read the sons of malice book. I think they're canon, they just worship a warp entity now not malal. Are all warp entities Chaotic? Or are all Chaos Gods Warp entities? This might throw into doubt them being Chaos Space Marines, as opposed to Renegades.

[greatcrusade08]

i use the 8 pointed star as icons for chaos glory for my generic word bearers CSM. i always thought it was the undivided symbol, as in all gods equal no favouritism

 

Sons of Malice, Legion of Taurus, etc can't use both their god's symbol and the eight pointed star at the same time, though. Similarily, a Plague Marine can't bear the eight pointed star either - once you're in full dedication to your god, you can't ask favors of the others (especially as Nurgle is the only thing keeping that bloated body alive :D ).

 

isnt the legion of taurus firestorm40ks DIY warband.. i know there was talk of kidnapping dan abnett and making him write them in (a nod to the movie misery)

but i didnt think they were canon just yet ;)

 

as an aside firestorm40ks LoT always nabs first place in local best army comps.. leaving me in 2nd place the last time out...

[minigun762]

EDIT: Sorry Minigun, missed your response -

Interesting thought DAT but I'm not sure I agree. I'm thinking primarily of the Word Bearers who worship Chaos in all of its glory, not just the four ruinous powers.

 

Do not the Word Bearers also worship the Chaos Gods without favoritism towards any one god?

 

Yeah they do but they take it a step further by worshipping the 4 as a part of Chaos as a whole. I'm at work so I can't find the quote but I'm fairly sure thats the case.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

i use the 8 pointed star as icons for chaos glory for my generic word bearers CSM. i always thought it was the undivided symbol, as in all gods equal no favouritism

 

Sons of Malice, Legion of Taurus, etc can't use both their god's symbol and the eight pointed star at the same time, though. Similarily, a Plague Marine can't bear the eight pointed star either - once you're in full dedication to your god, you can't ask favors of the others (especially as Nurgle is the only thing keeping that bloated body alive ;) ).

 

isnt the legion of taurus firestorm40ks DIY warband.. i know there was talk of kidnapping dan abnett and making him write them in (a nod to the movie misery)

but i didnt think they were canon just yet ;)

With his mastery of count as, I'm pretty sure his fluff counts as canon :teehee:

 

On a more serious note, I use his army as an example because there aren't any contradictions with current canon and thus all of his stuff would be acceptable if GW itself published it. Now, does that make it solid, unrefutable fact? No, of course not. But it's a completely logical source, and it works well as an example for this case ^_^

 

:huh: I could have sworn that all the cult models were without the Chaos Star, my bad. It looks like the Thousand Sons* just used an upgrade kit of some sort on the standard Chaos Marine sprue though, but still, GW did use a full Chaos star on them. Hmmmmm.

 

Sons of Malice despise Chaos as per the short story The Labyrinth though, it's been out a while :P

 

*Interestingly enough, I can't find Noise Marines on the GW website :whistling:

 

The Noise Marines are on mine, under the troops bit, next to the Khornes icon guy. To be fair, the ones that have it are the regular bolter marines. The Khorne icon guy's icon looks pretty similar to a Chaos Star.

 

Ah I haven't read the sons of malice book. I think they're canon, they just worship a warp entity now not malal. Are all warp entities Chaotic? Or are all Chaos Gods Warp entities? This might throw into doubt them being Chaos Space Marines, as opposed to Renegades.

Blast! I was hoping GW was removing them for an upcoming release, but instead my links are just broken :(

 

All Warp entities are Chaotic. Everything Chaotic is either a Warp entity or has been touched by a Warp entity. Warp = Chaos.

 

The distinction is between the big four Chaos Gods and all the little ones from all the other emotions, one of which being Malal. The Sons of Malice are Chaos Marines, but instead of worshipping the four big gods like most Chaos Marines do, they worship Malal instead, and because of that they bear only Malal's symbol.

 

However, that might not be the case with all dedicated Chaos Marines, what with Noise Marines and Thousand Sons models, so... draw what conclusions you will

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I never got that since BL is an offshoot of GW and Forgeworld is an offshoot of GW but Forgeworld is okay to accept as canon but BL is not? Especially since Forgeworld took Percilitor who was originally a Night Lords Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons and turned him into a Word Bearers Daemon Prince who was hunted down by the Howling Griffons. But on the one major Daemon Prince hunt that BL was allowed to handle(Voldorius), they actually followed the fluff. So personally I think the whole "BL is evil and since it doesn't jive with my view of 40k so it can't be canon" is whole load of bull hockey. Everyone seems to be okay when Forgeworld makes fluff changes so what's the big deal with BL doing it? Besides, since GW owns the copyrights on 40k, don't they have to okay the fluff/canon changes? So that would mean it still came from GW. Besides, no one considers how many tabletop fans BL actually brings to the table through its "evil, daemonic and unforgivable" fluff with the advertisements in the back of the book that everyone reads because they accidentally skipped over the "About the Author".

 

 

EDIT: There was no pun intended in the writing of this response.

 

I think it's more because Forgeworld fluff is written by the same, consistent team. People trust their judgment. BL gives their authors more free reign. They have specifically said that the story comes first, then the tiny details. But I think the biggest reason is that Forge World is doing a good job, whereas some of BL's authors have simply been terrible. That's what I meant by my previous comment. I'm sure we're all going to accept anything Dan Abnett says, or pretty much anyone who's written in the Horus Heresy series. But then there's the Soul Drinker and Blood Angels series, which aren't just bad stories, and don't just mis-represent parts of the lore, but actively re-define, re-interpret, and invent new aspects, many of which contradict existing elements. The Blood Angels from that series are nothing like the Blood Angels we see in any codex, and are barely even space marines. It's more like a sci-fi book that happens to use a lot of the same language as 40k than it is a 40k book. Both it and Codex: Blood Angels can't be cannon at the same time as they are too contradictory.

But the very people who wrote the Soul Drinkers series an the Blood Angels series have written HH stories so if everyone is going to take a HH author's novel(s) as canon then they should also take James Swallow and Ben Counter's as canon. Not just Dan Abnett because he made a Guard scout who can outhunt a mandrake. And like I pointed out, Forgeworld is not consistent with the fluff either. They changed one entire piece of fluff(I gues it should be called GW canon) just for one of their Imperial Armour volumes. And as either Legatus or A-D-B pointed out, the fluff/canon with 40k is inconsistent because the 40k universe is supposed to be so large that there should b conflicting accounts based on the source in the 40k universe. And since the Grey Knights are the only Chapter who is not supposed to have a single Traitor, I don't get the big deal with the Blood Angels having Traitors. The Space Wolves have Traitors. Why shouldn't the Blood Angels have Traitors? And what Chapter would want to admit that they had an internal civil war? And they covered up nicely in a way that doesn't compromise any of the Chapters involved.

 

And the Copyright you pointed out was specifically over Malal, not the Sons of Malice. And Malal was taken out, there were probably a lot of Sons of Malice fans who suddenly lost the fluff for their armies. BL provided a way for them to restore their fluff. And what I pointed out is where Forgeworld took a chunk of Night Lords fluff and made it Word Bearers fluff without even replacing it.

 

And minigun, I'm not sure it is the quote you are looking for but Anthoney Reynolds does say something similar in Dark Disciple in regards to Khalaxis's Khornate tendencies and how it conflicts with the Word Bearer faith.

[greatcrusade08]

isnt the legion of taurus firestorm40ks DIY warband.. i know there was talk of kidnapping dan abnett and making him write them in (a nod to the movie misery)

but i didnt think they were canon just yet ;)

With his mastery of count as, I'm pretty sure his fluff counts as canon :)

 

On a more serious note, I use his army as an example because there aren't any contradictions with current canon and thus all of his stuff would be acceptable if GW itself published it. Now, does that make it solid, unrefutable fact? No, of course not. But it's a completely logical source, and it works well as an example for this case ;)

 

actually i completely agree, and beleive we should label his legion of taurus as B&C canon for the purposes of site discussions