Drelthar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Of all the chaos gods, Khorne is the primary one who frowns upon cowardice and retreating from battle. Khorne's original followers amongst the adeptus astartes, the World Eaters, fled from Terra after Horus was defeated by the Emperor. The Warbands that fought under Angron during the First War for Armageddon also fled. More recently in 40K history, Zhufor and his Skulltakers fled from Vraks after that war turned sour. The point I'm trying to make is this: even though followers of Khorne worship a god that frowns upon fleeing from battle, they retreat in all the notable instances in which they've lost. Is there anything in 40K lore that justifies berzerkers and other Khorne worshipers having a 'fight another day' mentality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Of all the chaos gods, Khorne is the primary one who frowns upon cowardice and retreating from battle. Khorne's original followers amongst the adeptus astartes, the World Eaters, fled from Terra after Horus was defeated by the Emperor. The Warbands that fought under Angron during the First War for Armageddon also fled. More recently in 40K history, Zhufor and his Skulltakers fled from Vraks after that war turned sour. The point I'm trying to make is this: even though followers of Khorne worship a god that frowns upon fleeing from battle, they retreat in all the notable instances in which they've lost. Is there anything in 40K lore that justifies berzerkers and other Khorne worshipers having a 'fight another day' mentality? Absolutly, Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows - and living to slaughter another day will bring Khorne more skulls. In short, a dead Beserker can offer no skulls. Skulls for the skull throne brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he_plays_guitar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I would imagine that Khorne would frown upon retreating...because if he doesn't care from where the blood flows, wouldn't he then not care if his own followers were killed? Berserkers don't seem to me like the type of people to even understand the concept of retreating. After all, weren't they lobotomized and psycho-indoctrinated to become ruthless bloodthirsty crazed murderous killers? I just don't see them as warriors who know the value of retreating, and certainly not capable of pulling themselves mentally and physically out of battle. That's just my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraull the Rampager Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think the term 'lobotomise' was used VERY generally here. More, re-wire their brains in order to enduce extreme bouts of rage, whilst psycho-indoctrination and psycho stimms mess with their heightened levels of adrenaline and introduce further rage encouraging drugs. Since it wouldn't be possible for a World Eater warband to function if they lost TOTAL control (running into artillery in order to take the skulls of the crewman might be an example, or another, possessing and maintaining a warship). I'd say that they would indeed have some kind of idea for retreating. Especailly if it was, we'll take their skulls another day. I mean, look at Angron before he was a daemon, I think that's what berzerkers are like. Under control, but barely. When battle occurs, they're just very very mad. Some may fall under the whole, loss of sanity thing, and charge needlessly into artillery to become cannon fodder. But I doubt that they're just purely charge forward, let the guns take us out, and then scrape together what few skulls we can until we get massacred. Another point that people NEVER consider. The Chaos Gods are in fact, many aspects of said aspects. One man's pleasure, for example, may be gluttony. Hence, some of Slaanesh's followers may be extreme connosuiers of food (please excuse potential misspelling there, I don't use it often). Or some followers of Tzeentch may be the serfs of an Imperial World, who wish to one day be their own masters. I believe Khorne also has these characteristics. My favorite is the idea that Khorne may appear to some champions as a supreme hunter, or a completely honourable knight. Maybe Khorne could appear to some of his champions as an 18th-19th Century pistol duelist. These are aspects that people don't bother contemplating when thinking of Khorne, because GW dumbed him down for some stupid reason. Under these guises, I see it perfectly suitable that Khorne would prefer his noble, sacred warriors to retreat from a suicidal battle. In order to return, and regain some form of honour from their slight shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 "We are not retreating! We are relocating to another battlefront!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraull the Rampager Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Exactly Kol_Saresk. Exactly. XD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Absolutly Kol_Saresk, and Kraull its a great point about the lesser understood qualities of a Gods persona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I actually ripped it off from one of the Dawn of War games. It was either Chaos or the Space Marines, but the HQ says it when you send him one way and then click for him to do a u-turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drelthar Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 I'm drawing off of Lexicanum here, but in Khorne's Fortress, His area of the warp, there are chimneys that burn the souls of those who have fled from battle. I agree that there's no way that any Khornate warband could function and survive if they never retreated from suicidal battles, but the lore is so self-contradictory that we, the fans, are left to interpret it. I must admit, I had an ulterior motive for posting the topic - I'm developing the story for my own Khornate warband, and I got stuck on whether or not they would have ever retreated. I realized that if they won every single battle, they'd sound just as overpowered as the ultrasmurfs. At this point, I may have them retreat a few times, but I want to give solid reasons for why. The repercussions of doing so are also important to me, because I don't want to entirely abandon established lore, unlike certain infamous writers *cough* C.S. GOTO! *cough*. By the way, what source are you drawing off of for Angron, Kraull? I've read a short story in the Horus Heresy series where he's nutso after the Emperor abducted him from dying in battle with his fellow gladiators. Before the story begins, Angron's killed every Warhound (the World Eater's pre-Angron title) officer that has tried to calm the big psychopath down. Khârn succeeds in getting Angron to see reason, but not before the primarch pummels him and throw him against the walls of the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Wells there is a difference between retreating to survive and just running away. I could see berserkers retreating from say a tomb world that just woke up and is also recieving reenforcements that just entered in system. Or something similar with Tyranids. Now, 400 berserkers charge ten Ultrasmurfs. Said Ultrasmurfs throw some grenades and kill three of the charging berserkers. Everyone else turns tail and runs away. That I would not see happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 True. Also, if youll read it again youll find those chimneys actually burn the souls of those who have failed there morale check, not simply withdrawn from battle. I represent it as removing any Khorne marked unit in my army that fails said check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Well, religious men sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 As has been said, Khorne is the god of martial prowess and glorious bloodflow. Sure it's great to die while carving vermin from some penal legion throwing themselves upon you but, given the choice, wouldn't it be better to relocate to another battlefront (great line) indeed and face some elite troops, if the battle's main goal is lost? My guess is, it's the commanders who are mostly capable of making retreating decisions, I see berzerkers as just wishing to throw themselves at enemies and their fortresses (in Dawn of War they have no morale bar), but a Khornate commander will be able to keep some sense of strategic acumen - either that or he's insanely skilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraull the Rampager Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Khorne is simply, the God of War. War, includes tactical retreats.... IF we pretend that the board on which we play on ISN'T the end of the world (OMG HERESY RIGHT?). We could perhaps imagine, that those 400 berzerkers fleeing from 100's of thousands of penal legionaires, are actually retreating back to booby-traps, minefields, ambush sites etc. Is that really retreating? Or a tactical stratagem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The Laughter of Dark Gods by William King is a good read to get an idea of how this works for one Champion of Khorne at least. Technically yes it's a Warhammer novel but there's a lot of cross pollination with the gods and daemons between the 40k and Fantasy universes so it should hold true for power armoured followers as it does for their fantasy counterparts. In it the main character Kurt von Diehl talks about his chaos mutations, noting specifically the gifts he gained for victory and the mutation that were the price of Khorne's displeasure when he retreats from battle. It seems to imply if you lose or retreat too often you will become so mutated that you will end as a chaos spawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I like the "live to fight another day". Of course, I'm also very rooted in the whole "Warrior's Pride" thing. I started re-reading the whole Skallthrax thing where Khârn turned on his legion and sundered it, and wondered what must have been going through his mind. All I could think of was Khârn looking to his brothers, demanding them attack the Emperor's Children-but the other WE content to wait out the night. Khârn has a Leonidas/Vegeta moment of "Where is your pride brothers? Are you such cowards that you would shame our god!?" and "If you fear the cold...perhaps this will kindle your spirits!" and goes on to start flaming everything which led to the Pyrrhic victory (? It may have been a defeat since the WE legion was broken into warbands, and from what I've read the EC are still relatively 'intact'...) For my World Eaters warband, I draw heavily from fictional 'Warrior Races' like Star Trek's Klingons mixed with a dash of the Jem'Hadar (which are sort of like Lizardmen meet Astartes...if you haven't seen it). There have been a couple of games where where I've have been down to a squad of beserkers, and the enemy Space Wolves closing in, and I pictured them standing there in the mud-caked crater as bolt shells flew overhead, the Skullchampion flourishing with his poweraxe, "Today was a good day brothers, we have had a good fight, but we are not done." The remaining shout out "NO!" "I don't know about you, but I am going to drag every Space Dog I can with me into hell, in KHORNE'S Name! VICTORY IS LIFE! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" Four guys against 15...long odds, but they went down swinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allfather1 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 In it the main character Kurt von Diehl talks about his chaos mutations, noting specifically the gifts he gained for victory and the mutation that were the price of Khorne's displeasure when he retreats from battle. It seems to imply if you lose or retreat too often you will become so mutated that you will end as a chaos spawn. That sounds good, might need to buy that one. I must admit, I had an ulterior motive for posting the topic - I'm developing the story for my own Khornate warband, and I got stuck on whether or not they would have ever retreated. I realized that if they won every single battle, they'd sound just as overpowered as the ultrasmurfs. At this point, I may have them retreat a few times, but I want to give solid reasons for why. The repercussions of doing so are also important to me, because I don't want to entirely abandon established lore, unlike certain infamous writers *cough* C.S. GOTO! *cough*. Maybe the warband does tactical retreats but vows to return and take revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningblades20 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 In it the main character Kurt von Diehl talks about his chaos mutations, noting specifically the gifts he gained for victory and the mutation that were the price of Khorne's displeasure when he retreats from battle. It seems to imply if you lose or retreat too often you will become so mutated that you will end as a chaos spawn. That sounds good, might need to buy that one. Just to forewarn you so you don't expect a full book The Laughter of Dark Gods is a book of short stories with the author listed as David Pringle who did the editing the first short story is The Laughter of Dark Gods by William King. As for the retreating thing I would have to agree Khorne is more than just a god of slaughter and I think he would care more if you broke and ran from a fight then actually retreated for a different reason as part of a plan or to come back again with a different tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Grius Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 There is a difference between being on the field of battle and running from a foe that is right in front of you, and looking at the war and choosing not to commit any more resources. Leaving when you've lost, is just not committing suicide. Fleeing from a challenge while you're still on the battlefield is another entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The Lore sure is a little chaotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The Lore sure is a little chaotic. Badum-tsh! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Ideally followers of Khorne would never retreat. But then he'd basically have to resurrect all or most of them after every death they suffer, like he did with Khârn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drelthar Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 The Lore sure is a little chaotic. Badum-tsh! ;) You win good sir. You win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 In the older cannon, Khorne is the God of warriors and war. He admires martial skill and reserves his hatred for cowardice, rather than those who make a tactical retreat. In 40k the flavour of Khorne is shaped by the fact that his main followers are World Eaters, who are all Berserkers. Other Khorne followers may be highly disciplined. Indeed it's pretty easy to see a Space Marine chapter, obsessively dedicating their lives to martial pursuits and discipline being drawn into Khorne worship. Such followers would be the polar opposite of World Eaters, but Khorne cares not how the blood flows either. It's also worth remembering that historically, commanders are more widely remembered than warriors for what they do in war. Napoleon could be seen as one of Khorne's greatest mortal heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Napoleon? You mean Attila, Temujin (aka Gengis Khan), Alexander the Great, Leonidas, Xerxes, Julius Caesar, and other bloody commanders/generals/rulers/kings, really... But Napoleon? :lol: I think that there are many others that would be better Khorne Aspiring Champions :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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