ftcosiris Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I posted something similar to this in a different thread but wanted the wider set of thoughts. My thoughts on the Cabal is that the Cabal had a ulterior motive and lied to the Alpha's. I think they employed the same trick as Chaos pulled on Horus. (discussed later) Basically, what I understand the future's shown to the Alpha's to be is: 1) what actually exists in WH40K if the Emperor wins although it seems that things were "golden" for a while and including the eventual fall of the stagnating Imperium, and 2) Horus winning and then destroying humanity and Chaos in a massive free for all. Does anyone feel like the Cabal lost the THIRD tape, i.e. the one where the Alpha's stayed completely loyal and the Emperor didn't wind up in his Golden Prison. Remember that the ultimate goal of the Great Crusade appeared to be the utter annihilation of all things Xeno. The Crusade didn't even appear to tolerate Xeno's as slaves. ALL Xenos had to die right? Look at it from the Cabal's point of view. First, if Horus wins outright, bye bye humanity. Problem solved. Second, if they get the Alpha's to turn (partially), the Alpha's screw up the Raven Guard's dues ex machina return from the brink via the genetech* and the Emperor winds up on the Golden Throne. Granted, it's not a great outcome for the Xenos but the Emperor is not running around or even able to coordinate all of Humanity to destroy them. Given time, humanity still might wipe itself out taking Chaos with it. Given time, a less xenophobic race, (think Tau), may rise up and take out both the Imperium and Chaos. BUT That third tape. . . . The third acuity vision probably showed that if the Alpha's stayed loyal and Horus didn't mortally injure the Emperor, given enough time, the Emperor would have sealed the breach in the Webway project, taken the Webway from the Eldar, rallied the loyal Primarchs and Legions, obliterated the traitor Legions, and then . . . . what. . . . KILLED ALL XENOS. Xenos lose biggest in that third tape. From the Cabal's point of view, the third tape is the worst possible outcome. Hence, the Cabal told the Alpha's that the tape from what actually occurred (Alpha's partially traitors but Horus loses anyway), a stagnating atrophied death was the only possible outcome of a victory for the Emperor. Anybody think that the Cabal would tell the Alpha's: "Oh, by the way, if you remain entirely loyal and even openly work against Horus at the very beginning of his Heresy, there's at least a 25% chance that the Emperor will win and you can KILL all of us Xenos." No, no way were they going to put that little possibility forward. The Alpha's would have just chopped their heads off for wasting their time and immediately started working against Horus. What did they do instead, they didn't lie. They did show the Alpha's the outcome of the Emperor's victory. They just didn't mention that their Emperor wins scenario still assumed that the Alpha's turned traitor (outwardly). (I admit that they may have edited the Emperor wins tape to add that whole 10000 year golden period or whatever.) Anyhow, I think it was a brilliant tactic on the part of the Cabal to undermine the biggest threat to the existence of Xenos as a whole (i.e. the Emperor's Imperium) and at least preserved a fighting chance for all of us Xeno lovers out there. (I forgot to mention I joined the Tau in 998 M41 because the Imperium's just f***in nuts.) Sure, the Imperium is still scary in WH40K but it's lost its drive and focus from the Great Crusade Era. Also, it's still busy trying to kill itself (Chaos forces are still Imperials trying to kill Imperials) and not able to fully recover and KILL ALL XENOS. In the end, the Cabal achieved its goal. . . 10,000 years and Xenos are still around. It took the Emperor 200 years to conquer most of the galaxy. Do you really think he couldn't have finished the job in 10,000 years? *Footnote: I realize that the Alpha's may have saved the Raven Guard in Face of Treachery (called off the World Eater's ship) but had they not, Corax could still have made it out or, if Corax hadn't asked for the genetech, the Emperor may have given it to Dorn to make tons of Imperial Fists ON EARTH and there would have been 500,000 Imperial Fist space marines (from Earth stock) waiting for Horus to arrive. For that matter, the 1,000,000 new, improved imperial fist space marines could have taken Horus down whenever and where ever. (Remember, Corax made several thousand Raptors in week once the project was running. How many do you think they would have had after 5 or 6 more years with the trillions of people on Earth as candidates? Basically, Corax being given the genetech prevented a different loyalist primarch from getting it and actually making new space marines ON TERRA. Hence, Corax surviving Isstvan V may have doomed the Emperor. ____ Thoughts? Anyone have this same perspective? Have I not read a book which explicitly says that this was the Cabal's thinking and I'm an idiot for posting this? ______ I have similar thoughts regarding the visions shown to Horus in False Gods. Everything seemed to just be what actually happened in the end. 1) He visits a planet that is a Shrine world. OMG, Horus isn't idolized. DUH, he turned traitor. 2) He sees the Imperium rotting away, turning into an insane, stagnant, theocracy worshiping a distant, uncaring (Chaos tweak) God (Emperor). That's pretty much true but for the Chaos tweak. 3) I admit, the whole Emperor turning his back on the infant primarchs in their incubation tubes doesn't fit but was just Chaos going for the closer after showing Horus the actual outcome of the Emperor winning the Heresy (ie the believable opening) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I totally agree. I think the Alpha Legion were duped by the cabal. They were very similar to the chaos gods in that they showed a future that might come to pass but didn't mention the events that lead to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2995513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I believe its likely that the Cabal lied to the AL. If the AL knew how the Warp works as in its a reflection of the emotions of almost all the beings living in the galaxy, then the death of a single species should not bring about the death of the Chaos Gods. However due to the vast amounts of power humans as a species gives to the Chaos Gods our extinction should more than significantly weaken the Chaos Gods giving the other species in the galaxy a respite from the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2995582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 of course they lied. it is just that AL are idiots to believe a bunch of xenos just because they showed them a movie they have the worst motive to turn. all the other primarchs turned because of a flaw in their character but Alpharius and Omegon turned because they were stupid Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2996476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I also think that chaos interfered with the visions of the Cabal. The cabal are surprised to learn from Alpharius that Horus is already warmaster unlike their prediction in which it happens soon. but no one questions it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2996493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The thing is that none of the visions were ever "The Emperor won or Horus won" it was more like either Horus won or Horus lost. If there is a mythical "third tape" it was the Emperor won, humanity continued its enlightenment, wiped out most if not all of the xenos and then turned on itself as it always does. Chaos would be involved somewhere. As far as the Warmaster bit, they are seeing visions from the warp. Those could be directly influenced by the Powers, but only if they are receiving the visions from the powers. There are other powers in the warp other than the Dark Gods and in A Thousand Sons, we see that some of these powers are actually benevolent. So I would rather think that the visions were delayed or interrupted so that everything would happen faster than the Cabal anticipated, but they were not directly influenced by the Powers that Be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2997128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The Cabal is likely going to play a large portion in the overall story arch of the Heresy, now that Ollanius Pius is back etc. Although, I only forsee the Cabal as being a major player in Abnett novels, since they seem like his brain child. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2997185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I agree totally. Given how the interactions of the Alpha Legion and the Cabal pan out in Deliverence Lost not to mention John Gramaticus' cameo appearence in Know No Fear then its not just easy, but perfectly justified that the Cabal tried to play events to suit their own ends. If you stop and look back at all the varying parties in the Heresy, they're all trying to influence events behind the scenes with varying degress of success. Seems to me only the Cabal sees any fruit from their labours at this point Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2997941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Proteus Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The thing to take into account is the fact that the Emperor was actually trying to get humanity off its "use the warp" kick, and start opening and using the webway. It's also likely that the cabal had no idea either, since it was such a big secret. That's the biggest tidbit in my estimation. Why? Let's say the cabal knew about the golden throne gate? It would mean that eventually, Humanity would stumble onto the Eldar, and the other races, and have access to their remaining territory and craftworlds. Given the nature of the great crusade, there would be mass destruction awaiting the "enlightened" races of the galaxy! So, it would make sense to turn the tables, and make sure that Horus would wipe out humanity, and deal with chaos differently afterwards. Besides which, we don't actually know if the acuity shows the future, or if it's just the 30K, psychic version of Netflix. :sweat: -Proteus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247391-cabal-did-they-lose-the-third-acuity-vison/#findComment-2998701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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