ftcosiris Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I just realized, because Corax survived Isstvan V, the Emperor was doomed. In Deliverance Lost, Corax survives and is given the dues ex machina genetech to make Space Marines from practically any young human and the new Space Marine matures in a day or two, is faster and stronger than normal Space Marines, and they probably could have gone one step further and added genetic memories that included training like the Primarch's were given. Now, Corax takes the Genetech and goes to Deliverance, the Alpha Legion screws it up, and they wind up just a little better off than otherwise. Consider instead what would have happened if the Alpha Legion did not turn faux traitor, or at least that the Cabal did not ensure that the Alpha Legion would help Corax escape Isstvan V by calling off the World Eater's ship. Say Corax DIED on Isstvan V or in space before he could leave the system. What would have happened? The Emperor would have given the genetech to one of the other loyal primarchs, such as Dorn. Look at Dorn's personality. He would have calmly sat on Terra and, over the course of the next 5 years, created maybe a couple million new, pre-programmed Space Marines. When Horus tried to lay siege to Terra, Dorn's improved Imperial Fists would have just stomped Horus's pathetic 200,000-400,000 half crazed chaos space marines into the ground. Change it around, give the tech to the White Scars, what would have happened? . . . Okay, I don't actually know enough about White Scars to answer that but it wouldn't have been good for Horus. Let's not even consider millions of Space Wolves running around. Granted, they showed up too late to save the Emperor but the Emperor could have bequeathed the genetech to Russ in his last moments before being bound to the Golden Throne. The Heresy was over but 10 - 20 million loyal, programmed Space Wolves should be enough to root out every traitor space marine in the universe and annihilate or at least severely weaken the forces of Chaos in the Eye of Terror. They might even be able to destroy the four gods of Chaos with that kind of army. (By the way, with millions of Space Wolves at your disposal, why bother with giving the armor or bolters. Just send them at the forces of Chaos naked and beserk. They would kick the crap out of the demons bare handed (and bare-assed)). The loss of the potential use of the genetech by the loyalists during the Horus Heresy doomed the Emperor (and possibly the Imperium because they are denied the genetech after the Heresy). Corax's survival is the only reason a level headed primarch didn't get the tech, setup shop on Terra and make millions of programmed loyal Space Marines. Am I wrong? How could Horus have stopped Dorn from making Marines on Terra. By the time Horus rushed to Terra, weakening his forces from what eventually attacked Terra, there would still have been hundreds of thousands of Imperial Fists waiting on him. No contest! Corax's survival doomed us ALL. Admittedly, it would have been a mixed blessing because once the genie was out of the bottle and all that with regard to the unlimited number of space marines, but the Emperor could have used them in the Webway anyhow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Problem is though when you take the Grey Knights codex on board. The emperor still has gene tech to create them using his own genetic material Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Corax's survival doomed us ALL. Speak for yourself mate, I'm with Chaos. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Everyone were doomed when the Emperor taught Corax these things instead of Dorn. That only happened because Corax was alive and trying to save his legion. So, really, the Ravenguard allowing themselves to be killed doomed us all. Maybe the Iron Warriors & Word Bearers almost killing Corax "doomed us all." Better yet, Horus betraying humanity doomed humanity. Do you smell the vague developmental opportunity that is occurring in the- If it seems too bad that things didn't work out better and then you can immediately infer a connection with the one guy not dying, you could probably decide that the novel isn't really a compelling source. Like, after making this thread, it should be easy to discredit the book and forget you ever read it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Acually it looked to me like the Emperor was hesitant about giving even Corax the genetech. This is something he didn't want anyone having, at all. To be honest, I think he was using his own son as a shield. If Horus had found out about that genetech, he would have put his entire army after Deliverance until either Corax destroyed it or he got it. Instead, the AL find out, don't tell Horus, go after it, get it and then give a defective version Horus who gives it to Bile. Who is even now making the Emperor in his own image, a true slaughter who fights for the Glory that is Chaos. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If Corax had died then the genetech would still have been buried. Dorn didn't need to rebuild his legion, whereas Corax did. If Corax had died noone would have asked for a way to rebuild their Legion and the Emperor would never have given away its location. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 The Emperor would have given the genetech to one of the other loyal primarchs, such as Dorn. Corax got the genetech because he asked for it, and the Emperor believed that Corax having it would be a game-changer. Since none of the other Primarchs got it, then they either didn't ask for it, the Emperor didn't believe it'd make any difference, or both. If Corax died on Istvaan/Isstvan, then that would still be the case. The other Primarchs still wouldn't ask, or the Emperor would still believe it'd make no difference, or both. Corax getting the genetech didn't mean that the other Primarchs couldn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Let's not even consider millions of Space Wolves running around. This. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Let's not even consider millions of Space Wolves running around. This. Would make Angron's day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostclaw222 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Let's not even consider millions of Space Wolves running around. This. Which does bring to mind Battle of the Fang...and begs the question: if the Emperor shuttered the gengineering lab and all relevant tech down there after his work on the primarchs and the first batch of astartes, then did the Wolf Priests reinvent the wheel? Or did someone go back to the lab within the labyrinth, gather the scattered leftover components, and take that stuff back to Fenris? Or did the Wolves at some point between the Heresy and the Fang being attacked score some of the old tech from either the Alpha Legion or Fabius during the Scouring, in order to engage in their ambitious reforging of the Canis Helix? I think there's a dangling plot thread here that could make for a very interesting novel here. Not a big battle novel, perhaps, but definitely an astartes-intrigue book. I mean, the Wolves had to get their data and gear from somewhere, right? Unless they merely took what all the Legions got and actually cobbled together additional components via trial and error? Not trying to threadjack here. Just looking at your what-if, and trying to figure out how the Wolves still got access to some (but obviously not all) of the genetech that Corax did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murcielago Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Like many others here...I strongly disagree. Corax's survival didn't doom the emperor. Horus turned rogue and influenced other chapters to join him, THAT'S what did it. So what if the Alpha Legion has the genetech (I'm an Alpha Legion supporter), noone else knows that and they never even use it in the heresy. Hell, they didn't even do much in the heresy. The emperor gave Corax the genetech because he needed to remake the Ravenguard, thus he wouldn't have handed it out to anyone else except maybe Vulkan or Ferrus (OH WAIT, HE'S DEAD). So NO, Corax didn't screw us all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2995928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Besides, I still think Corax was being used as a shield. I mean look at it, the Emperor demanded that the rebuilding take place somewhere other than Terra. If you were Horus and you thought that you had just beaten the pulp out of three Legions and managed to kill at least one Primarch, and then BAM! all of sudden of those Legions that was almost wiped out reappears in strength, you are going to wonder how they did it. He is going to go after them. When he goes after them, he is either going to find the genetech or he is going to find the remains. Either way he is going to crush them. Believe it or not, the Alpha Legion actually saved the Raven Guard and that is what doomed Terra. See Horus was probably anticipating that the Raven Guard would actually strike back since they managed to reclaim their Primarch. So when the Alphas intervened and screwed up the recruitment process, the RG wound up with a "small" attack force that works great with their tactics. And it fits into what Horus expected. So as a result, the RG are bypassed other than a few retaliatory strikes that probably don't work out too well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Logically I look at it this way. The Emperor gave Corax the tech to rebuild his legion. In doing so he could very well of hit back hard at Horus buying more time for Dorn and to complete his defences and buy his other brothers time to rally to terra whilst sparing the lives of all the inocent who would still be claimed in the midst of the civil war. But the Alpha Legion believed that Horus needed to win and thusly set into action with regards to claiming the genetech. (by dammaging, destorying, what ever) the AL suceeded and as a bi product Corax was struck with grief at the monsters he had created. This in turn allowed Horus to carry on and Hit terra hard (something the Emperor may or may not of been aware of). Not having read the book I cant say much mind. But I am aware that Corax is no fool and is regarded as an able tacticial whos shadowy covert ops could of been applied to launch a series of attacks all over Horus's forces (and if the gene tech had work even on a open battle field Horus's forces marine for marine may of been outmatched) Hence why the Alpha Legion saw to destory them. Logically it makes sense that Corax reccieved the Genetech and the ability, for he would of bought time, something the Alpha Legion saw and knew thay had to cripple. But in doing so the Alpha Legion served no purpose other than their own. After all if Horus were to capture the genetech and as predicted become extremely paranoid whos to say he wouldnt use the tech to create more super soldiers whos to say he would not of bested the AL and unravell the reasons behind why they joined him in the first place. Thusly ultimately dooming them all. But that is just wild speculation of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftcosiris Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 If Corax had died then the genetech would still have been buried. Dorn didn't need to rebuild his legion, whereas Corax did. If Corax had died noone would have asked for a way to rebuild their Legion and the Emperor would never have given away its location. This isn't quite correct. Dorn's legion was not dead. However, Dorn was desperate for marines because the bulk of the Imperial Fists were stranded by warp storms while on the way to Isstvan. He only had a token force at the time that Corax arrived, else, why was he so desperate for 2,000 marines if he had his entire legion available. In the current backstory, his forces are only able to get back to Terra much later in the Heresy (much to his relief I am sure). He was unable to get the genetech because Corax took the ONLY sample of the Primarch genetic material. Remember, it took the Emperor himself a hundred years or more of work to create that one sample. Hence, if it hadn't been given to Corax, Dorn would have been able to ask for it later when NONE of the loyal legions came back from Isstvan and he didn't even have his own legion to defend Terra. Another thing, I do not remember the Emperor explicitly stating that Corax had to work on the genetech off world. In fact, Corax repeatedly says that he has implicit authorization because the Emperor knew that would be Corax's intention when he gave it to Corax. Also, the Alpha Legion has not been able to make full use of the stolen genetech because they were likely unable to undo the taint from the Chaos "virus" after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 We also have no record of Dorn asking the Emperor about it either. Dorn took the "Do Not Disturb" sign to heart and was leaving him alone. Also, the virus was only in the created geneseed stock. The data on how to make the geneseed is still intact so as long as they rebuild the genetech with the blueprints they stole, they're good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftcosiris Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Dorn hadn't gotten desperate enough to ask only 180 days after Isstvan V. (90 days of Raven's fighting on Isstvan and 90 days for Corax to travel to Terra. IIRC) He would have eventually asked the Emperor or the Emperor would have volunteered the genetech to save Terra when it became more clear that no reinforcements were going to make it. (ie Russ unreachable, Imp Fists lost in warp storm, Ultra's not fleet born/warp storms, Angels unreachable, etc and so on.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Proteus Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I like to think that the Emperor took the long view, and saw that if Dorn had his way, there would be this uber-force sitting on Terra, just waiting until Horus knocked on the eternity gate. Corax basically wanted to hit back not just for revenge, but because it never suited him to sit still, wait in a bunker, and THEN start killing. The Raven Guard were perfectly made for hit and run, cloak and dagger. If Corax spent the rest of the Heresy running around laying the smackdown on small, isolated hosts of the traitor legions successfully, then he would've made quite a dent in their numbers over the better part of a decade. It speaks VOLUMES that all the canon and fluff we can muster basically states that Horus knew about the approach of the Wolves and the Angels, and knew that he couldn't win a standup fight if it kept going. So, I think the Emperor relied on the fact that his sons fought differently, and willingly gave Corax the Genetech, so that he could fight as he was made to, and so that when the traitor legions reached Terra, they'd already be weaker for it, if only incrementally. -Proteus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2996908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftcosiris Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 I like to think that the Emperor took the long view, and saw that if Dorn had his way, there would be this uber-force sitting on Terra, just waiting until Horus knocked on the eternity gate. Corax basically wanted to hit back not just for revenge, but because it never suited him to sit still, wait in a bunker, and THEN start killing. The Raven Guard were perfectly made for hit and run, cloak and dagger. If Corax spent the rest of the Heresy running around laying the smackdown on small, isolated hosts of the traitor legions successfully, then he would've made quite a dent in their numbers over the better part of a decade. It speaks VOLUMES that all the canon and fluff we can muster basically states that Horus knew about the approach of the Wolves and the Angels, and knew that he couldn't win a standup fight if it kept going. So, I think the Emperor relied on the fact that his sons fought differently, and willingly gave Corax the Genetech, so that he could fight as he was made to, and so that when the traitor legions reached Terra, they'd already be weaker for it, if only incrementally. -Proteus I agree but you kind of missed my point. My point is not whether, in the end, giving Corax the genetech was the right decision. The point is that if Corax were DEAD, the only person the Emperor COULD have given it to for the next year or four was Dorn. Hence, there would be an uber-force waiting and the Emperor wouldn't have been required to teleport to the Vengeful Spirit as a final option. He could have directly pitted the Imperial Fists against the traitors and then, when Horus forces were decimated, fought Horus on his own terms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2997157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 No, saying that the Emperor would have given the genetech to anyone other than Corax is presumptuous. if Corax didn't live than no one would have bothered to ask for it. Dorn did not even after knowing what Corax was trying to do and to never occurred to him to use the genetech to increase the number of SM. in fact, it would go against his entire character to do something so rash and untested with failure a near certainty when the resources could have been used somewhere else. Corax only can to the conclusion of using genetech as a result of his legion being decimated and his need to return to the fight on his own terms. no other loyalist primarch other than Vulcan would have the same kind of epiphany. and the only reason why the Emperor gave it to Corax was also a result of the Raven Guard's losses and Corax's own loss and failure and need for revenge and redemption. The Emperor would have kept the genetech locked and secure forever if Corax dead. if he had intended for any other Primarchs to use the tech, why would he need to wait till COrax comes asking for it? he would have given it to Dorn when he made Dorn in charge of the the defense of Terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-2997795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 If going with this logic you could also say Corax doomed us all by not killing Curze and Lorgar(possible) and maybe even Angron later (very unlikely) Killing Curze would have freed up the Dark angels and Lorar the Ultramarines. Killing Angron would have possibly stopped them breaching the Imperial walls and in the end Horus would have been swatted like a fly by the new combined strength at Terra. As i have read the book which i dislike but can honestly say in no way did Corax doom anyone except his own legion and only then because of the alpha legion's intervention. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so this book seems to follow along those lines. If not Corax he gave it to then hypothetically he could have gave it to Vulkan or any of the other legions that where hurting at the time OR none. We don't write the fluff for a reason. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3000484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 ^^ Unfortunately, Corax was a little scared of Curze (lol:cuss moment if there was ever one), so some real dumb :D went down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3000753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 ^^Unfortunately, Corax was a little scared of Curze (lol:cuss moment if there was ever one), so some real dumb :D went down. I dont believe that Corax was scared of Curze himself, but rather he is afraid that Curze represents what Corax could have become if things occured differently in his past. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3000769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Pruned a lot of comments to keep this thread more family friendly. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3062968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 It never doomed the Emperor. It was just one of the many catalysts that fed the heresy.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3065080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysaer Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 No, saying that the Emperor would have given the genetech to anyone other than Corax is presumptuous. if Corax didn't live than no one would have bothered to ask for it. Dorn did not even after knowing what Corax was trying to do and to never occurred to him to use the genetech to increase the number of SM. in fact, it would go against his entire character to do something so rash and untested with failure a near certainty when the resources could have been used somewhere else. Corax only can to the conclusion of using genetech as a result of his legion being decimated and his need to return to the fight on his own terms. no other loyalist primarch other than Vulcan would have the same kind of epiphany. and the only reason why the Emperor gave it to Corax was also a result of the Raven Guard's losses and Corax's own loss and failure and need for revenge and redemption. The Emperor would have kept the genetech locked and secure forever if Corax dead. if he had intended for any other Primarchs to use the tech, why would he need to wait till COrax comes asking for it? he would have given it to Dorn when he made Dorn in charge of the the defense of Terra Amen. I agree with this comlpetely. I like your initial idea ftcosiris, but I feel that it was only Corax who could/would have asked for the genetech based on all the fluff I've read previously. It wouldn't have made sense for the emperor to have waited this long and then give it a Primarch who wouldn't be dead in your case, if he had really wanted to hand out that tech he'd have done it as soon as the Heresy started and created billions of marines to deal with the seige or stop the heresy in its tracks before that. Also if it'd been this case of using the tech, the BigE in all his wisdom could have created a nice new batch from the comfort of his own home by himself or as mentioned through Dorn. As I said though it's an interesting idea ftcosiris and there is still an argument for it, I just personaly prefer the cut and dry story we have now ;) Although I like your idea and questions like this always lead to fun chats, so thanks dude :tu: -Rysaer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247392-coraxs-survival-doomed-the-emperor-spoilers/#findComment-3066119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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