Dammeron Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There is something wonderfully compelling about these ancient books of yore. Some of the first army books ever produced by GW, they are both MASSIVE hardback affairs, crammed to bursting with enough background material, D100 tables, random mutations, characters, chaos gifts etc to glut a Great Unclean One. Arguably most engaging of all is the naive enthusiasm the books radiate: this was the first time much of what is now regarded as canon concerning Chaos, the Warp (then simply known as The Realm of Chaos), the Dark Gods et al was set to print, meaning that the stuff is still very fresh and obviously as compelling to the writers as it is the readers. Rules are generally an incoherent but fun affair; completely tertiary to the range of background material and snippets of written fiction that pervade the works. Items of interest include much which has either been excised from the background or is now only alluded to. For example, did you know that back at this point in Chaos's history, Daemon Princes were so powerful they were regarded as minor Chaos patrons, and could have warbands formed around then in the same manner as Chaos Gods? They could even grant marks and Chaos Rewards; RoC: The Lost and the Damned contains a whole chart of "Gifts" that the Daemon Prince Mortarion could provide his followers in the name of Nurgle. Daemon Princes themselves did not take to the field; they were considered far too unearthly and supremely powerful (outranking the Greater Daemons in terms of power and status in the eyes of their Masters). Also, there is a fair bit of detail on tertiary or minor Chaos Powers/Warp entities, which players are encouraged to design themselves, along with appropriate pantheons of daemons, gifts etc (there is an entire section that provides background and rules for accomplishing this, along with examples created by the writers). In terms of background, such lesser deities are variously described as nascent divinities in the warp that haven't yet accrued the power and level of sentience of the Four Great Powers, daemon princes or other mortal souls that have somehow managed to become their own localised vorticies of power within the warp, becoming minor deities in their own rights, or entities that are born from particular acts or events within the material universe. One particularly interesting detail suggests that there are even cults dedicated to bringing about such entities via mass suicide, murder or other such activities. Fun as the background is (and it is a compelling read), the rules are nightmarish; organising a game from so many scattered bits and pieces, much of which rely a great deal on player imagination and intuition, would (and did) take forever under this system, but had a great amount of redundant detail that leant flavour and a massive roleplaying kick to the whole affair (at this point, the game systems of warhammer and 40K had a great deal in common with Dungeons and Dragons, and were much more narrative-driven). Personally, I would love to see this style of book back again, if only as a one off or limited edition. An army book that incorporates all of the manifold forces of chaos, but also compiles all of the existing background on the Traitor Legions, renegades, daemon worlds, chaos cults etc would be amazing, especially if they can capture the ethos of these original tomes, which is that of something slightly forbidden and unclean. If you can get your hands on these pieces, then I'd urge you to do so; they are very much of their period, and reflect all the very best and worst of the era in which they were produced. If nothing else, they serve as excellent comparison pieces against which to assess the quality of what GW is currently churning out, and are damn fun reads into the bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 And they are way out of my price range. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I had them both when they were still valid. I have the Slaves to darkness one here, the other is till at my Parents house somewhere. I do love the way that they are laid out, and that back then the Word Bearers were, according to a picture Khorne worshippers than the Undivided worshippers they are now! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 While I would love to go back to the days where you could spend hours making a list, sadly thats just not going to happen. Quite a few people and GW's main target for their product want simple and something you can play realatively fast. Do I agree with this method? Nope. But its what we are given. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and I do love the trips down that long and winding trail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 See I missed all of this stuff. But I would have loved to have seen it. D&D just seems to small to me but to me, making a plot-driven Apoc game with individual lists that just go all out and the thought of pitting army vs army with hundreds pf models on each side and each army actually jive with its fluff instead of compromising for what works and my blood gets pumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I take mine down from the shelf every once in a while and re-read them. Nostalgia indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 The gaming system itself back then was nuttier than a bag of Ann Coulter clones. Every attack a model had was distinct, depending on what they were using to attack. Head butt attacks, horn attacks, bite attacks, unarmed attacks...you had to determine and calculate each one, and each type of attack had certain benefits and deficits. Of course, armies were MUCH smaller then (it was possible to conduct a battle with two or three miniatures), but even so, the manner in which the rules are laid out in these books made it a bit of a chore to sort out. Also, the books assume that battles carry on one from the other in a kind of narrative system, so characters that die or mutate in one battle remain dead or retain their mutations in the next. In this manner, chaos champions could progress from being lowly vassals to mighty Daemon princes or lowly chaos spawn, depending on what they'd achieved (and alot of random dice rolls). I think the trick would be resurrecting the flavour of these books whilst retaining the more elegant game system that we have today. I'd happily pay through the nose for a big, hardback Chaos book (or two) that had the flavour and feeling of these books, if only because they go beyond utilitarian rules manuals: they are actually fun to read. Fortunately, GW seem to have realised this after their ill conceived "minimalist" period, and works such as the Dark Eldar codex and Vampire Counts FB army book do have very distinct styles and sensibilities, as well as rules that reflect enough of the background to be fun to play. I must say, having read the more recent army books, I do have high hopes for the up and coming Chaos codex, and reading RoC has rekindled my enthusiasm massively. If the new codex turns out to be a stinker (hard to imagine it could be any worse than the current one), I think I'll quite happily start collecting a smaller warband under the RoC system to play one or two friendly games. One of the things I love about these books is the incidental detail that has been taken up by later writers and expanded upon to produce key parts of the background. For example, Perturabo is mentioned in Lost and the Damned, but it's a throw-away reference whilst discussing the nature of daemon worlds; nothing about his character or the Iron Warriors is explained, save that the Iron Warriors are described as "extremely active" within the Eye of Terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraull the Rampager Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Has this actually been described? I've always figured that Daemon Princes could be minor entities, since the Chaos Gods are merely super-powerful daemons, or a great many daemons combined into one entitity. Otherwise, why would daemon princes bother taking over worlds for people to worship them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 ^ It's vaguely alluded to in many current works of Chaos; specifically, it is maintained that daemon princes rule worlds within the Eye of Terror that they then shape according to their whims and natures. However, RoC actually provides gaming mechanics whereby Daemon Princes may be used as patrons for an army in place of a Chaos God. For example, there is a Mark of Mortarion, and Gifts of Mortarion in Lost and the Damned. Such a system could be quite nicely refined and utilised as a mechanic in the current gaming system for creating armies of specific chaos cults and/ or legions; as well as "Gifts of the Gods" which could be applied to make armies dedicated to one of the Four Great Powers, perhaps we could also have "Gifts of the Night" to reflect the Night Lords, "Gifts of the Aurelian" to reflect Word Bearers, "Gifts of Iron" for the Iron Warriors and "Gifts of the Hydra" to represent the alpha legion. These could be applied simply as wargear or upgrades on a unit wide or model by model basis quite easily. It would also allow very easily for representation of schisms, renegade or splinter factions of the original legions by allowing you to mix and match the Gifts you apply across the entire army: one unit could have a Gift of the Night, whereas another has a Gift of Iron, and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Oh, and the artwork of Plague Marines dancing with Nurgle cultists and Beastmen is hilarious! (I so wish I was joking...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Oh, and the artwork of Plague Marines dancing with Nurgle cultists and Beastmen is hilarious! (I so wish I was joking...) Please tell me they weren't doing the Thriller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Still have both of mine. When Night Lords were with Khorne and sacred numbers truly ment something. The mutation generator was huge. Did it use a D666? I'll have to dig them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The mutation generator was huge. Did it use a D666? I'll have to dig them out. D1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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