Orphus Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So we all know that Leman Russ was tricked into wiping out the Thousand Sons by Horus when he should have just escorted Magnus to Terra. It's certainly a bit late to say sorry but wouldn't have Russ eventually been told the truth? How would have he reacted. I know the Space Wolves have all this Thousand Sons hate but in the end we were in the wrong, weren't we? That being said it probably wouldn't have taken much for the Space Wolves to go after the Thousand Sons anyway due to their sorcerous doings. Umm and if Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns gives answers can you please not spoil anything for me? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierdale Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 A very interesting question! My initial thoughts are that Russ would probably think "Good riddance anyway", and then be enraged -and seeking the blood of - Horus for using him. Interested to see what others think. If I remember correctly neither of the two HH books on the sack of Prospero actually cover Russ finding out that he was used. Hopefully it will be depicted in a later novel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Well, if your asking for info not provided by either "ATS" or PB" on whether the Wolves were tricked or not, then i'll only refer to the Collected Visions books. in these books the Emperor says this to Magnus at Nikea: "If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, then I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time". page 94 then it says this: "The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ with his Space Marine Legion, the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterniss between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the Warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction of from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! The Emperor despatched the Primarch Leman Russ with his Space Marines Legion, the Space WOlves, to the planet of Prospero to prosecute the arch-heretic Magnus the Red. The Primarch's order's were to destroy the Red Sorcerer and his Thousand Sons Legion. The Thousand Sons had been judged and found guilty of heretical sorcery and communing with the Warp. To aid Russ, the EMperor loaned him a contingent of his own bodybuard- the Custodian Guard. This was a sure sign that the Primarch ahd the full authority of the Emperor. Accompanying Russ was a fleet of Black Ships, with orders to carry back to Terra any psykers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with." page 98 of the Collected Visions. SO no, we werent wrong in our actions on Prospero. The Council of Nikea had given Magnus a clear answer: stop mucking bout with sorcery. When Magnus, using sorcery, learns of Horus's treachery, his uses even MORE sorcery to give this information to the Emperor, blowing out the wards around the Imperial Palace and wrecking the Emperor's work below the Palace (mastering a eldar web gate). Magus was warned to stop playing with fire. the Emperor personally showed him the dangers of the War, and got Magnus to vow not to go any further. Magnus then spat on his vow and continued his practices. Magnus brought the Wolves of Fenris to Prospero by his own arrogance, and paid the price. Wolf Lord Kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 double post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So you want us to talk about the subject without relating to the most important and relevant information...? Hmmm. :blink: Well, if your asking for info not provided by either "ATS" or PB" on whether the Wolves were tricked or not, then i'll only refer to the Collected Visions books. in these books the Emperor says this to Magnus at Nikea: "If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, then I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time". page 94 then it says this: "The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ with his Space Marine Legion, the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the Warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction of from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! The Emperor despatched the Primarch Leman Russ with his Space Marines Legion, the Space Wolves, to the planet of Prospero to prosecute the arch-heretic Magnus the Red. The Primarch's order's were to destroy the Red Sorcerer and his Thousand Sons Legion. The Thousand Sons had been judged and found guilty of heretical sorcery and communing with the Warp. To aid Russ, the EMperor loaned him a contingent of his own bodybuard- the Custodian Guard. This was a sure sign that the Primarch ahd the full authority of the Emperor. Accompanying Russ was a fleet of Black Ships, with orders to carry back to Terra any psykers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with." page 98 of the Collected Visions. So no, we werent wrong in our actions on Prospero. The Council of Nikea had given Magnus a clear answer: stop mucking bout with sorcery. When Magnus, using sorcery, learns of Horus's treachery, his uses even MORE sorcery to give this information to the Emperor, blowing out the wards around the Imperial Palace and wrecking the Emperor's work below the Palace (mastering a eldar web gate). Magus was warned to stop playing with fire. the Emperor personally showed him the dangers of the War, and got Magnus to vow not to go any further. Magnus then spat on his vow and continued his practices. Magnus brought the Wolves of Fenris to Prospero by his own arrogance, and paid the price. Wolf Lord Kieran I am in agreeance with Wolf Lord Kieran. The Thousand Sons were 'my Legion' even since the 'Slaves to Darkness' book (1990) and I was a big fan of them. Jedi Space Marines :D The way the Index Astartes books were written, Russ was a jerk. But now the HH series has been fleshed out, any hope of Magnus being a tragic hero were dashed. He crossed the line, which you can read about in ATS, and did things that bound him to Chaos. Even if he did that with a good heart, he damned himself and his Legion in doing so. Russ did the right thing, and Horus did not dupe him into destroying the Thousand Sons. The Emperor had commanded there destruction. +++ Imo, the IA fluff was more intelligent, tragic and interesting. Magnus was a good guy to be brought to heel by Russ, whose antagonism towards Magnus was manipulated by the arch-snake Horus. Excellent tragedy and drama right there. But this is nothing more than a memory now :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The Wolves were definitely WRONG on The Thousand Sons, Magnus and Prospero. What happend on Prospero was a great Tragedy brought about by the energies of the immaterium, through centruies with poison being whispered into both camps ears. I belive Russ when he found out became really sad deep down, but never showed it. I don't think he felt regret. The Thousand sons had voilated the edict of Nikea, so he wouldn't feel he did anything wrong, just sadness at how everything played out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 " knowledge of a lesser lie hides the truth of a greater one " Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can't remember the exact quote but in PB one of the wolves (I think a RP) mentions regret about how brother was fighting brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The only truth is the imperial truth. Despite the bad taste we followed the emperors decree and sought to prosecute as instructed. wrecking Prospero was insignificant as was any other world we put down at any time through out the grate crusade. to value it any more would be hypocritical. Astartes on either side saw the tragedy of brother fighting brother but as eluded to it by Russ himself wasn't the first time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So we all know that Leman Russ was tricked into wiping out the Thousand Sons by Horus when he should have just escorted Magnus to Terra. That is the old fluff. In PB Russ tries to give magnus a chance to surrender. but uses the wrong spy. But really their is no way to offer magnus terms as Magnus blocks all transmissions from and to prospero so he cant receive any offers of surrender so sealing his own fate. Magnus had done so many deals with chaos he is locked in unless he want to give up on his Legion. Interestingly Horus does not consider Magnus certain to join his side afferwards suggesting magnus could have gone independant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Until its retconned, the fluff in Collected Visions is the truth on the matter. The information provided above shows where the kill-order came from, and shows Magnus's guilt. this is the fate of those that willingly betray the Emperor. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2996972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It is very difficult to talk about without revealing information that could be considered spoilers. You should read the SpaceWolves and Thousand Sons books. In Battle of the Fang, a certain character who was on Prospero first hand said Russ was crying, and was very sorry to have to do that. Through ignorance, Magnus destroyed or damaged the emperors psychic defenses. Hence he was punished. Although very unfortunate, it happened and cannot be changed. You really need to finish readng Prosbero Burns!!! :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Until its retconned, the fluff in Collected Visions is the truth on the matter. The information provided above shows where the kill-order came from, and shows Magnus's guilt. this is the fate of those that willingly betray the Emperor. WLK Why would the fluff in Collected Visions be the truth on the matter? That statement dosen't make sense. There is no truth of the matter here. If you had too choose then it would be what's in the HH series, not collected visions. Collected visions dosen't live up to the standard of what we see in HH series, so I don't feel much about the fluff in Collected visions. It far too simplistic. But that's only if you HAD to choose, but luckily that's not the chase. There is no truth of the matter, because it's far too complicated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 How about it was a :) situation all round, and we not get too caught up in the details of who told who to do what or if they were right to do so, since there is no definite answer? Huh? Sound good? Sweet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 In Battle of the Fang, a certain character who was on Prospero first hand said Russ was crying, and was very sorry to have to do that. -sigh- reading this right now and i am probably going to be ending up expecting this now x.x Edited the quote so there is now a spoiler warning Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Did Russ ever even talk to the Emperor after the destruction of the 1000 sons? As far as i know he was to far away to get back before the assault on Terra, so he never saw him alive after, no one but the Emperor would know what his orders where so no one could or can judge if he did or did not do what he was told. There is no way for Russ to find out if Horus (or the demon possessing him) tricked him or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Why would the fluff in Collected Visions be the truth on the matter? That statement dosen't make sense. There is no truth of the matter here. If you had too choose then it would be what's in the HH series, not collected visions. Collected visions dosen't live up to the standard of what we see in HH series, so I don't feel much about the fluff in Collected visions. It far too simplistic. But that's only if you HAD to choose, but luckily that's not the chase. There is no truth of the matter, because it's far too complicated. Far as I see there is little to no disagreement the HH novels pretty much come down on the wolves side and agree with CV. Can I add that reading Outcast dead will give you a idea of the ramifications of Magnuses sorcery and devastation it causes So we all know that Leman Russ was tricked into wiping out the Thousand Sons by Horus I would say Magnus was tricked into forcing the emperor to wipe him out . Did Russ ever even talk to the Emperor after the destruction of the 1000 sons? As far as i know he was to far away to get back before the assault on Terra, so he never saw him alive after, no one but the Emperor would know what his orders where so no one could or can judge if he did or did not do what he was told. There is no way for Russ to find out if Horus (or the demon possessing him) tricked him or not Good points Russ was probably out of contact with Terra. How would he find out? only the Emperor really knows Magnus was doing it out loyalty far as everyone else is concerned he attacks earth and lays waste to it. Then Russ goes to sort him out he uses Warp banned powers to escape and is next seen in the company of the Traitors. The loyalists probably would just presume he was in with them from the beginning. Russ only way he would know is if the Emperor tells him before he goes. Which given the Emperors need to know style is unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 It appears I have some reading to do :tu: Thanks for the input it's making me think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Why would the fluff in Collected Visions be the truth on the matter? That statement dosen't make sense. There is no truth of the matter here. If you had too choose then it would be what's in the HH series, not collected visions. Collected visions dosen't live up to the standard of what we see in HH series, so I don't feel much about the fluff in Collected visions. It far too simplistic. But that's only if you HAD to choose, but luckily that's not the chase. There is no truth of the matter, because it's far too complicated. Far as I see there is little to no disagreement the HH novels pretty much come down on the wolves side and agree with CV. Can I add that reading Outcast dead will give you a idea of the ramifications of Magnuses sorcery and devastation it causes I have read Outcast dead, but I can't see how the horrible effects of Magnus emerging in the Imperial dungens, justify the destruction of Prospero. The Wolves were wrong, and are wrong to the end. Both the 6th and 15th legion were loyal all the way through, but the wolves were decived into destroying the Thousand Sons. Everyone can see it was a big mistake to take such drastic action and too much was lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pall Ironbear Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The HH series are being written as eye witness accounts, the CV as a document of "historical fact". Both are fantastic works of fiction that allow people to use their imaginations, so there really is no right or wrong answer to this as GW/BL keep changing their minds on the fluff every week it seems. My personal opinion is Russ, carried out the orders he was given, doesn't mean he had to like them. Pretty certain his type of charachter would have thought about the consequences, but he wouldn't have openly voiced them. And he would have felt justified in carrying out The Allfather's commands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have read Outcast dead, but I can't see how the horrible effects of Magnus emerging in the Imperial dungens, justify the destruction of Prospero It has far vaster effects than just on the dungeons. The chief astropath (IIRC) states that he expects the wolves to be sent to destory the Thousand sons after seeing the effects and he is not in the dungeons. What option do they have Magnus does not surrender? Russ tries to get Magnus to surrender in PB what option does he have? If he had surrendered they might have had an option but given he did not what option did Russ have? My personal opinion is Russ, carried out the orders he was given, doesn't mean he had to like them Yup Russ does ask Magnus to surrrender to spare him from destroying another brother in PB And is reported as having cryed afterwards in BOTF. So he does not seem very happy about his task handed to him by the emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 There is no way for Russ to find out if Horus (or the demon possessing him) tricked him or not. Whoa! when did Horus get possessed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 This is a hard discussion if you can't discuss PB and TS. Collected Visions is different than the HH books. I personally tend to adhere to the last bit of fluff being the most "accurate". I will say our actions were not wrong in any of the fluff. We acted on informatio we had. If the warmaster contacts Russ, and tells him something he has suspected, and twisted it more to place Magnus in the worst light possible, Russ will not hesitate. Remember, the Emperor was working on his Webway project and had handed over all martial power to Horus. There's never been any mention of "You have free Reign unless you need to order sanction on another legion". Based on PB, I do think Russ will have strong and deep moment of regret. But the following help mitigate his emotions. 1. Magnus was still in the wrong and undoubtedly even if the order was just to apprehend, if they Magnus didn't obey, the next quick order was "sanction" and "system kill". 2. He had to take the orders of his Warmaster. And we know SW's are unquestionably loyal 3. Later, Magnus and the Tsons will join the Traitors fully 4. Not for Russ, but for the rest of the SW's, the Tsons invade Fenris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 In Battle of the Fang, a certain character who was on Prospero first hand said Russ was crying, and was very sorry to have to do that. -sigh- reading this right now and i am probably going to be ending up expecting this now x.x Edited the quote so there is now a spoiler warning Spoiler? I thought I was pretty vague. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Until its retconned, the fluff in Collected Visions is the truth on the matter. The information provided above shows where the kill-order came from, and shows Magnus's guilt. this is the fate of those that willingly betray the Emperor. WLK Why would the fluff in Collected Visions be the truth on the matter? That statement dosen't make sense. There is no truth of the matter here. If you had too choose then it would be what's in the HH series, not collected visions. Collected visions dosen't live up to the standard of what we see in HH series, so I don't feel much about the fluff in Collected visions. It far too simplistic. But that's only if you HAD to choose, but luckily that's not the chase. There is no truth of the matter, because it's far too complicated. The statement makes sense as the Collected Visions was/is the map the HH novel series is following, and is the child of Alan Merrett, the Fluff God of GW. While some things are being changed, as of Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons, the events i mentioned above were not changed. If the newest additions to the fluff dont change the older fluff, then the older pieces are still valid in connection with the new fluff. As much as i like the HH series, alot of it can be seen as biased by whoever is witnessing the event, such as Ahriman proves during the very poorly written Council of Nikea (as the OP hasnt read the book, please pm me if you would like me to explain what i mean by that. i am having problems explaing it without spoiling anything.) And while the Collected Visions is simplistic at times, it is far superior to much of the HH series (looking at FotE, DoA, FA, BftA, DL) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247469-after-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2997956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.