After the sacking of Prospero...

[eyeslikethunder]

There is no way for Russ to find out if Horus (or the demon possessing him) tricked him or not.

Whoa! when did Horus get possessed?

 

 

 

In PB we see the primorial annihilator in the form of horus

 

[Orphus]

This is a hard discussion if you can't discuss PB and TS.

 

Does anyone hate me yet? XD I'm seeing alot of above and

ZOMGspoilors!!!

.

 

There's nothing stopping you guys all having a more in depth discussion on this over in the HH section if you want to, because I won't be there. The common thing I'm getting is that Russ would have done what he was told like a good wolfy loyal to the Emperor, as he would have had little reason to suspect Horus of anything other than doing as instructed by the Emperor. Whether he was actually TOLD anything afterwards it would be unlikely HOWEVER as Horus was corrupted/possessed/braindead/whatever he is now then maybe Russ realised that he (as others had been) tricked by him afterwards.

 

:EDIT:

 

NOTE TO SELF, DO NOT QUOTE PEOPLE WITH SPOILER BLACKOUTS BECAUSE WHEN YOU GET THE TEXT TO QUOTE THEM THE CODE IS NOT THERE TO BLACK IT OUT.

...and there was me thinking I'd be witty... :lol:

[commander alexander]

I am in agreeance with Wolf Lord Kieran. The Thousand Sons were 'my Legion' even since the 'Slaves to Darkness' book (1990) and I was a big fan of them. Jedi Space Marines :)

 

 

The way the Index Astartes books were written, Russ was a jerk. But now the HH series has been fleshed out, any hope of Magnus being a tragic hero were dashed. He crossed the line, which you can read about in ATS, and did things that bound him to Chaos. Even if he did that with a good heart, he damned himself and his Legion in doing so.

 

Russ did the right thing, and Horus did not dupe him into destroying the Thousand Sons. The Emperor had commanded there destruction.

 

+++

 

Imo, the IA fluff was more intelligent, tragic and interesting. Magnus was a good guy to be brought to heel by Russ, whose antagonism towards Magnus was manipulated by the arch-snake Horus. Excellent tragedy and drama right there.

But this is nothing more than a memory now :)

 

I thought the last bit you had to say was exactly what happened, at least thats what I've gotten out of PB.

Also, I remember distinctly in PB, Horus was getting rid of Magnus because he was unsure if he could corrupt him, and his powers posed too much of a threat. Horus was the Arch-traitor and the former warmaster, he did his best to sow discord in the galaxy before his assault on terra.

 

 

P.S., I never could figure out how to get rid of the blackout, untl now. You just have to quote it lol.

[Max_Dammit]

P.S., I never could figure out how to get rid of the blackout, untl now. You just have to quote it lol.

Just select the text :)

[eyeslikethunder]

Well

The old fluff had Horus change the order when he sent it on to Russ

but given the events of the outcast dead

say Magnus does not warn the emperor until after istvann. Emperor is not exactly

 

going to relay his order through horus after he has turned traitor or Russ

 

listen to him and Russ must be in contact with earth for him receive the order

 

to get Magnus and been told horus was traitor.

 

Also

In the old fluff it was suggested that Russ didn't give Magnus a chance to go peacefully but

in PB he is seen trying to do exactly that.

 

[commander alexander]

P.S., I never could figure out how to get rid of the blackout, untl now. You just have to quote it lol.

Just select the text ;)

 

<_< :) Aahaha, thanks.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I thought the last bit you had to say was exactly what happened, at least thats what I've gotten out of PB.

Also, I remember distinctly in PB, Horus was getting rid of Magnus because he was unsure if he could corrupt him, and his powers posed too much of a threat. Horus was the Arch-traitor and the former warmaster, he did his best to sow discord in the galaxy before his assault on terra.

 

 

P.S., I never could figure out how to get rid of the blackout, untl now. You just have to quote it lol.

 

 

The Emperor commanded Russ to destroy Magnus and the Thousand Sons, iIrc. I assume there was some hope for Magnus to come, as he might have been hooked up to the Golden Throne, and so that was why Russ voxed him to surrender.

 

Magnus was somewhat naive in the old version of events. In the new version, he has already compacted with Tzeentch to save his Legion and is portrayed as having arrogance concerning his ability to master the Warp.

 

All the buddy spirits the TS have are, as you'd know, daemons.

 

The Legion was corrupted from the time Magnus compacted with Tzeentch, and tragically unstable from the beginning - which would result in their destruction anyway.

 

It did suit Horus for Magnus to be discredited and destroyed, but Magnus's dealings had already damaged the quality of his testimony to the Emperor. Having two loyalists battle one another was perfect for Horus, but I don't think Horus was the one who manipulated that to happen in this new version....

 

 

 

I'd have to read the book again to be 100% sure, but maybe Wolf Lord Kieran has a better memory about this than me....?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You hit the key points on the head Willie, but i want to add one statement to your post:

 

I believe that Russ sent his message to Magnus (or tried to) for another reason, hinted at in the First Heretic.

 

 

When Magnus and Lorgar are talking about Lorgar's recent troubles, Magnus remarks how the Emperor talked to the Primarchs on how to deal with Lorgar.

 

Magnus says that the "Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmercilful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he'd already lost two brothers and had no desire to lose a third"

 

I think this statement might provide some insight into just what an arrogant and blind being Magnus is, and maybe a stronger indication of why Russ tried to bring Magnus in peacefully.

 

 

 

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You hit the key points on the head Willie, but i want to add one statement to your post:

 

I believe that Russ sent his message to Magnus (or tried to) for another reason, hinted at in the First Heretic.

 

 

When Magnus and Lorgar are talking about Lorgar's recent troubles, Magnus remarks how the Emperor talked to the Primarchs on how to deal with Lorgar.

 

Magnus says that the "Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmercilful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he'd already lost two brothers and had no desire to lose a third"

 

I think this statement might provide some insight into just what an arrogant and blind being Magnus is, and maybe a stronger indication of why Russ tried to bring Magnus in peacefully.

 

 

 

 

WLK

 

Very good :)

 

With regards to:

I think this statement might provide some insight into just what an arrogant and blind being Magnus is, and maybe a stronger indication of why Russ tried to bring Magnus in peacefully.

 

 

Question:

 

Why do you think that means Magnus is blind and arrogant? - I mean outside of him thinking is can control the Warp and defying the Emperor's orders.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Question:

 

Why do you think that means Magnus is blind and arrogant? - I mean outside of him thinking is can control the Warp and defying the Emperor's orders.

 

 

I think Magnus's greatest weakness is how he sees the galaxy around him. He sees things, (in my opinion of course), as mere problems to be solved. In a age of science i think he would have quested for the sole "truth", letting nothing get in his way. Its his misfortune that he was born (created?) with access to the warp, because here liesa place where reason has no hold, no claim.

 

To Magnus everything is a problem to be solved. Knowledge is power as he said. The problem is that he wasnt tempered on how to responsibly use that power. That is his downfall. He never had Uncle Ben to tell him that "with great power comes great responsiblity". By the time the Emperor came along, and showed him the dangers of the Warp, it was already too late, he already begun that paving that path to damnation.

 

What this means for me is that he sees anybody that ISNT pushing the boundaries farther and into the unknown is ultimately flawed. When a small child puts his hand on a hot oven he is burned, and learns not to repeat the experience. As Magnus was never burned, and seemingly without limits, he pushes himself into a much larger game than he is ready for (while its ironic that in First Heretic he warns Lorgar from doing the very same thing).

 

He sees the Wolves as children playing with loaded guns, as hyprocrites for only skimming the powers he uses on a regular basis. His quest has taken him so far into the wild he can no longer see his way back, so continues further. When he is called out on it, 2 separate times, rather than heeding the warnings he convinces himself that power is its own reward. (the warnings came from the Emperor at Nikea, and Ahriman shortly before the daemon spell was sent to the Emperor to warn of Horus's fall.)

 

For Magnus, there is no limits, no temperance. The advice of others are wasted upon him because he knows best. When Russ supported Lorgar, Magnus (who lacked the family bonds and brotherhood that made Russ what he is) had to rationalize Russ's actions into something that supported his own personal view, and never took into account that Russ might actually care for his brother Primarchs. This to me is the highest of arrogance, to see oneself as so superior to another that you completely mis-read their actions (or maybe i am biased as i come from a large, somewhat crazy family that occasionally fights and patches things up) into something to comform to your own insecurities.

 

To sum up my rambling, Magnus is a booksmart genius that has little "stree" smarts, much like Hermoine Granger might have become if not balanced out by Ron and Harry. Some limits are there for a reason, because there ARE monsters in the dark. Magnus refused this basic truth, and burned an empire because of it.

 

Of course, this is all my opinion. I could be flat wrong.

 

WLK

 

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Question:

 

Why do you think that means Magnus is blind and arrogant? - I mean outside of him thinking is can control the Warp and defying the Emperor's orders.

 

 

I think Magnus's greatest weakness is how he sees the galaxy around him. He sees things, (in my opinion of course), as mere problems to be solved. In a age of science i think he would have quested for the sole "truth", letting nothing get in his way. Its his misfortune that he was born (created?) with access to the warp, because here liesa place where reason has no hold, no claim.

 

To Magnus everything is a problem to be solved. Knowledge is power as he said. The problem is that he wasnt tempered on how to responsibly use that power. That is his downfall. He never had Uncle Ben to tell him that "with great power comes great responsiblity". By the time the Emperor came along, and showed him the dangers of the Warp, it was already too late, he already begun that paving that path to damnation.

 

What this means for me is that he sees anybody that ISNT pushing the boundaries farther and into the unknown is ultimately flawed. When a small child puts his hand on a hot oven he is burned, and learns not to repeat the experience. As Magnus was never burned, and seemingly without limits, he pushes himself into a much larger game than he is ready for (while its ironic that in First Heretic he warns Lorgar from doing the very same thing).

 

He sees the Wolves as children playing with loaded guns, as hyprocrites for only skimming the powers he uses on a regular basis. His quest has taken him so far into the wild he can no longer see his way back, so continues further. When he is called out on it, 2 separate times, rather than heeding the warnings he convinces himself that power is its own reward. (the warnings came from the Emperor at Nikea, and Ahriman shortly before the daemon spell was sent to the Emperor to warn of Horus's fall.)

 

For Magnus, there is no limits, no temperance. The advice of others are wasted upon him because he knows best. When Russ supported Lorgar, Magnus (who lacked the family bonds and brotherhood that made Russ what he is) had to rationalize Russ's actions into something that supported his own personal view, and never took into account that Russ might actually care for his brother Primarchs. This to me is the highest of arrogance, to see oneself as so superior to another that you completely mis-read their actions (or maybe i am biased as i come from a large, somewhat crazy family that occasionally fights and patches things up) into something to comform to your own insecurities.

 

To sum up my rambling, Magnus is a booksmart genius that has little "stree" smarts, much like Hermoine Granger might have become if not balanced out by Ron and Harry. Some limits are there for a reason, because there ARE monsters in the dark. Magnus refused this basic truth, and burned an empire because of it.

 

Of course, this is all my opinion. I could be flat wrong.

 

WLK

 

 

Hmmm. *is impressed*

 

I think that is pretty good actually. It is a little hard for me to understand this 'new' Magnus, as I so firmly have held him as the Tragic Hero since the IA articles. I think I really need to re-read ATS and PB and First Heretic, as with the first run, I was simply getting rid of my old perceptions, but this second time will be me gaining new perceptions. Ha.

 

Good assessment :tu:

[Max_Dammit]

Question:

 

Why do you think that means Magnus is blind and arrogant? - I mean outside of him thinking is can control the Warp and defying the Emperor's orders.

 

 

I think Magnus's greatest weakness is how he sees the galaxy around him. He sees things, (in my opinion of course), as mere problems to be solved. In a age of science i think he would have quested for the sole "truth", letting nothing get in his way. Its his misfortune that he was born (created?) with access to the warp, because here liesa place where reason has no hold, no claim.

 

To Magnus everything is a problem to be solved. Knowledge is power as he said. The problem is that he wasnt tempered on how to responsibly use that power. That is his downfall. He never had Uncle Ben to tell him that "with great power comes great responsiblity". By the time the Emperor came along, and showed him the dangers of the Warp, it was already too late, he already begun that paving that path to damnation.

 

What this means for me is that he sees anybody that ISNT pushing the boundaries farther and into the unknown is ultimately flawed. When a small child puts his hand on a hot oven he is burned, and learns not to repeat the experience. As Magnus was never burned, and seemingly without limits, he pushes himself into a much larger game than he is ready for (while its ironic that in First Heretic he warns Lorgar from doing the very same thing).

 

He sees the Wolves as children playing with loaded guns, as hyprocrites for only skimming the powers he uses on a regular basis. His quest has taken him so far into the wild he can no longer see his way back, so continues further. When he is called out on it, 2 separate times, rather than heeding the warnings he convinces himself that power is its own reward. (the warnings came from the Emperor at Nikea, and Ahriman shortly before the daemon spell was sent to the Emperor to warn of Horus's fall.)

 

For Magnus, there is no limits, no temperance. The advice of others are wasted upon him because he knows best. When Russ supported Lorgar, Magnus (who lacked the family bonds and brotherhood that made Russ what he is) had to rationalize Russ's actions into something that supported his own personal view, and never took into account that Russ might actually care for his brother Primarchs. This to me is the highest of arrogance, to see oneself as so superior to another that you completely mis-read their actions (or maybe i am biased as i come from a large, somewhat crazy family that occasionally fights and patches things up) into something to comform to your own insecurities.

 

To sum up my rambling, Magnus is a booksmart genius that has little "stree" smarts, much like Hermoine Granger might have become if not balanced out by Ron and Harry. Some limits are there for a reason, because there ARE monsters in the dark. Magnus refused this basic truth, and burned an empire because of it.

 

Of course, this is all my opinion. I could be flat wrong.

 

WLK

 

 

Hmmm. *is impressed*

 

I think that is pretty good actually. It is a little hard for me to understand this 'new' Magnus, as I so firmly have held him as the Tragic Hero since the IA articles. I think I really need to re-read ATS and PB and First Heretic, as with the first run, I was simply getting rid of my old perceptions, but this second time will be me gaining new perceptions. Ha.

 

Good assessment :)

 

No need to read it again, you can now listen to it :)

[eyeslikethunder]

 

His quest has taken him so far into the wild he can no longer see his way back, so continues further. When he is called out on it, 2 separate times, rather than heeding the warnings he convinces himself that power is its own reward. (the warnings came from the Emperor at Nikea, and Ahriman shortly before the daemon spell was sent to the Emperor to warn of Horus's fall.)

 

 

A great description of magnuses fall WLK but one issue i has was

 

 

I'm not sure he felt that power was its own reward, He just felt that only he knew the truth and he had to save everyone from their ignorance and fear. While proving that he was right

 

The primorial annihilator leads him along allowing magnus to see what it wants Magnus to see what its needs him to while all a long letting him think that its his great power and willingness to go where others fear to tread that is allowing him to see these secrets that no one else can.

 

 

 

otherwise i think its great description

[Grimtooth]

Great breakdown WLK.

 

 

One thing that I have always thought is that any guilt Russ may have felt would have been assuaged by what happened at Prospero in the final moments of the battle. Any and all accusations against Magnus were vindicated in the events at the final battle. Russ witnesses firsthand exactly how far Magnus and the Thousand Sons had delved into the warp and sorcery.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Eyeslikethunder

I can see what your saying, and agree.

 

 

@Willie: I always disliked the Thousand Sons, Magnus especially, from the old IA because i thought the "tragic hero" was a bit over-done. its only now, in the HH series, that my dislike of him is fading. I doubt i will ever feel truely sorry for him, because i believe a stronger person than he could have heeded the warnings (thus making his fall a failure of his character by the manipulations of the Chaos Gods...where other beings rejected suchs advances), but atleast i can connect with him.

 

@Brother Ramses

Yea, i feel bad for Russ during the Heresy. Much like the Lion, what Russ wanted was a brotherhood of equals striving for the betterment of Mankind. He broke his role with his father (sending his plea to Magnus to stand down) for the sake of a brother, who turned out to be the pawn of the greatest fear of any Son of Fenris. I think this hurt Russ more than any physical blow ever did, and directly prompted his eventual trip into the Eye.

 

 

WLK

[Valtonis]

that is why Prospero Burns was such a letdown.

 

it was marketing and promoted as seeing the event from the viewpoint of the Space Wolves and thus allow us to know if they were manipulated into destroying the Thousand Sons.

instead the whole Prospero Burns event just seems like an afterthought

[Marshal Wilhelm]

that is why Prospero Burns was such a letdown.

 

it was marketing and promoted as seeing the event from the viewpoint of the Space Wolves and thus allow us to know if they were manipulated into destroying the Thousand Sons.

instead the whole Prospero Burns event just seems like an afterthought

 

Whilst I did like the book, and did feel some more love for the Wolves [especially Abnett's GrimDark 30K version], I agree that the book was not Prospero Burns.

 

Sure it had the assault of Prospero in it, but it managed to miss that and I think if you look at what BL was trying to hype up, even they could not deny this. What they were hyping ≠ what was written.

[Russ Brother 92]

I personally really liked PB as for me it kept the rapture of 'the other side of the story' from ATS.

 

Also

after Ahriman's warning to Magnus you find out that in his rage (Magnus) he's killed Amon, his teacher and imo. the wisest of the Sons and this was him breaking away from the somewhat 'sane' Magnus we see throughout the HH who despite his arrogance and self-indulgence is still quite wise and truly does know much of what many other don't, I believe that Magnus was the Emperor's most beloved son as he was the only one who could truly push the Imperium to the edge of space and was also the only 'son' who had the same Psychich abilities as the Emperor, thus he was chosen to become the beacon of light and allow his father and brothers to wage war and create peace across the various worlds and potentially dimensions.

 

[Grimfoe]

I don't usually spend much time defending the fluff as GW has done a pretty poor job of it, themselves.

 

I will say that the core fluff is really good and the story of the TS and the Wolves is probably my favorite example of that fluff. The reason I believe it to be so well done is the complexity of the story and the realism that is built into the events leading up to the attack on Prospero. Who's to blame for the attack?

 

Everyone. Russ is not a mind numbed robot or thoughtless killer. Many believe him to be, but that is not the core of the wolves. They are ruthless, not thoughtless. They are willing to disobey orders when necessary, but they don't here. You can excuse their blame in this and understand the mistake they made, but they certainly do share in the blame.

 

Magnus is right to want to explore the areas he explores and actually sees information that could save the imperium. He disobeys the Emperor in his expoloration, however, and does so with a certain amount of arrogance that leads to the attack. He should have seen this coming and realized he was giving the Emperor no choice but to attack. He was well intentioned, but certainly shares in the blame.

 

The Emperor is most to blame. In the entire heresy and throughout all the fluff, it is ultimately the Emperor that causes these problems. He is a false god. He is not Divine, but is given that status by the people. While he resisted that title before the heresy, it was still thrust upon him and he didn't stop it. Eventually, he embraces his divine status. He is heavy handed in his approach believing that only he could truly understand the Warp and the dangers therein. His unwillingness to listen to Magnus and work with the information that Magnus provided led to Magnus's heresy. The Emperor's ignorance and failure to understand the effects the Warp would have on Horus and the ability to turn Horus away from him led to Horus's heresy. Ultimately, I think the story of the heresy is one of hubris. The Emperor allows himself to be placed above the rest of mankind. He denies God and allows himself to be worshipped. His hubris is the reason for the heresy and the fall of mankind. This fall is forshadowed during the Great Crusade and is elegently told in the newer fluff. I don't like all the inconsistencies in the fluff over the years, but it's still a very good story.

[hendrik]

i must disagree with your last paragraph grimfoe. the allfather was entombed upon the golden throne, barely able to do anything. how could he have stopped him being revered to as a god? if i'm not mistaken it's lorgars book that has given him godhood over time

[Grimfoe]

I hadn't thought of that. That's a good point. I still think he is most to blame, however, as his Divinity was already being established before Horus rose to power. I would say he was to blame in the way he weilded god-like power with autonomy. He looked like a god, acted like a god so he became thought of like a god.

 

Not sure there was another way for him, to be honest, but that's part of the appeal of the story. Sometimes we're stuck doing the wrong thing. Either because we don't plan properly or we're unable to see another way. Makes the story more tragic and appealing. Each side can see how their favorite protagonist was "right" and the others were "wrong."

[hendrik]

I hadn't thought of that. That's a good point. I still think he is most to blame, however, as his Divinity was already being established before Horus rose to power. I would say he was to blame in the way he weilded god-like power with autonomy. He looked like a god, acted like a god so he became thought of like a god.

 

Not sure there was another way for him, to be honest, but that's part of the appeal of the story. Sometimes we're stuck doing the wrong thing. Either because we don't plan properly or we're unable to see another way. Makes the story more tragic and appealing. Each side can see how their favorite protagonist was "right" and the others were "wrong."

how did he act like a god? sure he had superb psychic powers but these were known to be possesed by others aswell. He acted like an emperor, expanding his empire while staying the ultimate pinacle of power. it was through lorgar and his book and the need the normal humans had to explain the maleficum that they turned to worshipping him in secret. in some of the earlier horus heresy books it's even made quite clear the emperor prosecutes those that worship him as a deity instead of as an emperor. that is why they have to gather in secrecy to worship him. offcourse once the emperor gets removed from the play and the imperium finds itself overwhelmed by chaos this is the perfect breedingground to make the imperial cult grow in size rapidly.

 

back in the days all marines just thought of the emperor as the ultimate warrior and general, while nowadays they say a prayer to him before unleashing their wrath. almost every vein of the imperium has gotten infected by the emperor-as-a-god-virus so to speak (and maybe he actually has trascended into godhood now).

[skoll]

I believe the emperor himself is partly to blame , simply because he favored horus above the others. He held him in such high esteem that he thought he could not in fact fall from grace, indeed in the end the emperor's wounds only come about as his reluctance to smite his son. Only when the emperor sees what Horus has truly become does he put any actual effort into crushing him, and he does so utterly in one blow....had he done that , the imperium would not be in shamble like it is today. The emperor was never a" first amongst equals" he was indeed far removed from all the rest, to the point where none could truly understand him and as such no one saw himself as one that could advice him, so as a human his errors cost human lives in the billions if not trillions.

 

ofc I dont really think that for that'd be heresy

[Lord Ragnarok]

Make the discussion specific to Russ and SW's please.

[Grimtooth]

Make the discussion specific to Russ and SW's please.

 

As directed, has anyone else seen the Wolves mentality explained even moreso when we take their actions in Prospero Burns into account with the 13th Co in Wolf at the Door?