Upcoming Wolves vs BA game

[Brother Crazywolf]

So I have a game on Thursday night against my regular oppent's BA army. He posted his list here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=247347

 

As he said I usually run Stormcaller and the normal 1 pack per 500 pts. I will try to post my lsi when I am at a pc, at work right now. At the moment I am most concerned with how people have countered the Furioso dread and Mephiston. In the past the furioso has chewed my troops up pretty badly. I have never faced Mephiston so I am interested in how people have countered the combo. Along with the grey hunters I usually have a mixed bag of Long Fangs in a Razor with TLLC, a second RP, maybe a pred or speeders, a pair of dreads, one standard, and one with MM. I am still in the process of tweaking my list so I will have more info later.

 

Suggestions? I am not looking for a tailored list, but more of an allcomers.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Crazywolf

[Khine]

That is going to be an interesting list to go up against.

 

I would actually consider a 14 squad of bloodclaws with a WG with either PF or TH and a wolf priest and have them stalk Mephiston in a Land raider. Make sure that you get that WG in base to base with him, because you only need one hit to get through and its bye bye Mephiston and he can't be targeted directly for wounds. Plus that would be an overwhelm attacking unit anyway.

 

apart from that your best adopting a defensive stance for the majority of your troops. Plasma guns, plasma cannons, rockets and use powers like Murderous hurricane to slow people down. Also stormcaller's tempest ability will no doubt do wonders for you aswell. I don't think your going to have much need for lascannons as they are far too much a one target at extreme ranged heavy weapon and theres nothing with too much armour that Living lightning and rockets shouldnt do fine with.

 

I know that is quite specific for most BA armies and you didnt want a tailored list but it does look like he has tailored hit list for anti marines which means anti wolves. Just call it your ... defensive 2k list if you want to feel better :lol:

[Brother Crazywolf]

Thanks for the input. I don't have a suitable Wolf Priest model at the moment, but I am going to be working on that in the near future. I like the idea of a stalker unit, but I am not sure how I would pull that off at the moment. I think I am going to have to play somewhat defesively but I am not sure what game we are going to play quite yet.

 

I know I said no tailored lists, but a valid anti marine list is always valid.

 

Anyone have suggestions on the Furioso? That bugger has been really annoying. I am also hoping that I can make him fail a fair number of Feel No Pain rolls or at least prevent some of them with Plasma and other instant death goodies.

 

I will let everyone know how the game goes, but I have the sneaking suspicion that the dice gods have a plan for me.

[Wysten]

What list do you have going at the moment? That would be most helpful for determining what you have at hand.

[Brother Crazywolf]

Here is the proposed list that I have made. It clocks in right around 1996 points if I haven't screwed anything up to horribly bad (I am tired and working from some pretty cryptic notes at the moment). I will hopefully get a chance to check the math tonight. I was hoping for a fourth Grey Hunter pack, but I will see if I can fit it in somehow. I will also see if I can hammer in a Lone Wolf in TDA, maybe with a chainfist, in there as well.

 

HQ:

 

Stormcaller (RTDA)

Rune Priest (Runic Armor, Chooser, Wolf Tail Talisman) – Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

 

Elites:

 

Wolf Guard (TDA) x 4 with Stormcaller

Wolf Guard (PA) with Grey Hunters

2x Power Fist / Bolter (With Plasma Gun Hunters)

1x Power Weapon / Plasma Pistol (With Flamer Hunters)

Dread (Multi Melta & Heavy Flamer, WTN) + Drop Pod (Deathwind)

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Heavy Bolter)

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta)

 

Troops:

 

9 Grey Hunters (Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, Rhino) x 2

9 Grey Hunters (Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Flamer, Rhino) x 1

 

Heavy Support:

 

Long Fangs (Pack Leader, 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Missle Launcher, 1x Lascannon, Twin Linked Lascannon Razorback)

Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Autocannon)

 

I am still getting a feel of where I want to go with this list. Being a bloodclaw I tend to have as much fun as possible, but I have yet to win at this points level against my rather veteran friend. I think I did snag a draw and haven't been tabled either so for the most part the games have been fairly close. He is also experimenting with his lists with me as a guinea squig. :tu:

 

As I said before I have been chewed up by the Furioso in prior games because I did not have any anti armor in my packs. I did put the powerfist Wolf Guard in to help balance that out. I would like to use Melta guns, but I lack the models at the moment. (It seems that my next order may be fixing that problem though.)

 

Questions, comments, critique?

[Karack Blackstone]

Here is the proposed list that I have made. It clocks in right around 1996 points if I haven't screwed anything up to horribly bad (I am tired and working from some pretty cryptic notes at the moment). I will hopefully get a chance to check the math tonight. I was hoping for a fourth Grey Hunter pack, but I will see if I can fit it in somehow. I will also see if I can hammer in a Lone Wolf in TDA, maybe with a chainfist, in there as well.

 

HQ:

 

Stormcaller (RTDA)

Rune Priest (Runic Armor, Chooser, Wolf Tail Talisman) – Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

 

Elites:

 

Wolf Guard (TDA) x 4 with Stormcaller

Wolf Guard (PA) with Grey Hunters

2x Power Fist / Bolter (With Plasma Gun Hunters)

1x Power Weapon / Plasma Pistol (With Flamer Hunters)

Dread (Multi Melta & Heavy Flamer, WTN) + Drop Pod (Deathwind)

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Heavy Bolter)

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta)

 

Troops:

 

9 Grey Hunters (Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, Rhino) x 2

9 Grey Hunters (Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Flamer, Rhino) x 1

 

Heavy Support:

 

Long Fangs (Pack Leader, 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Missle Launcher, 1x Lascannon, Twin Linked Lascannon Razorback)

Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Autocannon)

 

I am still getting a feel of where I want to go with this list. Being a bloodclaw I tend to have as much fun as possible, but I have yet to win at this points level against my rather veteran friend. I think I did snag a draw and haven't been tabled either so for the most part the games have been fairly close. He is also experimenting with his lists with me as a guinea squig. :yes:

 

As I said before I have been chewed up by the Furioso in prior games because I did not have any anti armor in my packs. I did put the powerfist Wolf Guard in to help balance that out. I would like to use Melta guns, but I lack the models at the moment. (It seems that my next order may be fixing that problem though.)

 

Questions, comments, critique?

 

Missile Launcher Long Fangs and a second PF WG to go with the Flamer pack might work well. Since your Dread is a nasty beast at its relatively close range, and it's Drop podding in, that thing really needs to just focus on hunting down and stopping the Furioso your friend fields against you. The only problem I have seen is never facing Mephiston, and he seems like a problem. There's ways to shut down everything. If Meph can't join other units, check a BA Codex and see what his T stat says. Five Heavy Bolter Long Fangs, should they be able to injure him, may prove to be a way to go. If they are not reliably able to do Meph harm, consider what to do about him otherwise.

 

By the way, if he's using a Furioso with Blood Talons, he's Str 6, and needs 6's on his dice to just glance your Dread. Your WTN should mean you can tear his Dread apart, should yours get close and do well on the dice rolls, as a 1 is nothing, but anything 2 is a glance, and 3+ is a pen result at that point (HF means you kept the DCCW). (Assuming a Furioso is not AV 13 Front, then it'd be 1, 2 fail, 3 glance, 4+ pen result.)

 

Just remember, focus fire and spreading fire around depend on what is coming at you. BA's need to close, especially if he decides to throw Death Company your way next game. Your Long Fangs may have what you can currently field; maybe see if you can pick up another Devastator Box and build them all? This will give you vastly more options, as Land Speeders, due to their AV 10, are very quick to be shut down from shooting their weapons.

[Wysten]

Yeah, considering your general lack of anti tank (meltas namely, though your speeders and Fangs help) and the shortage of feet on the ground (I am only counting just under 30 PA) so I am really quite concerned whether you quite have the fortitude to take the charges from his Meth, Dread or a mult-charge. Assuming these guys are jetpackers.

 

I also wouldn't consider droppoding the dread close to them as you will simply end up loosing it. Meth can and will defeat a dreadnort in hand to hand combat fairly quickly, and you really don't want to be dropping your dread away from your army as you will definately need it to win any combats the hunters get entangled in and simply use the droppod as cover.

 

Just as said, your main issue is you don't really have enough long ranged fire and close range anti tank to bust transports. I would possibly drop the Rune Priest to try and find more feet on the ground or for a small Long Fang pack. Your already paying for the most expensive psyker in the codex, paying another 135 for another seems counter productive considering how much has been spent. The more shooting and solid pressence you can afford the better.

 

Best of luck challanging them, I am sure it will be a epic battle either way!

[Brother Crazywolf]

So here is another candidae list taking into account the feedback I have gotten above.

 

HQ:

 

Stormcaller (RTDA)

 

Elites:

 

Wolf Guard (TDA) x 4 with Stormcaller

- 1x power weapon and stormbolter

- 3x power fist and stormbolter

Wolf Guard (PA) with Grey Hunters

2x Power Fist / Bolter (With Plasma Gun Hunters)

2x Power Weapon / Plasma Pistol / meltabombs (With Flamer Hunters)

Dread (Multi Melta & Heavy Flamer, WTN) drop pod + deathwind

Lone wolf (TDA, PF, Stormbolter, meltabombs)

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Heavy Bolter)

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta)

 

Troops:

 

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, Rhino) x 1

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun) on foot.

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Flamer, Drop pod) x 1

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power weapon, Flamer) on foot.

 

Heavy Support:

 

Long Fangs (Pack Leader, 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Missle Launcher, 1x Lascannon, Twin Linked Lascannon Razorback)

Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Autocannon)

 

Comes in at 1999 after overhauling my math twice. Sucks being tired.

 

Does this look more survivable?

[Khine]

Yes i would say that could do fairly strongly against blood angels.

 

Two pieces of advice i just remembered.

 

First turn this isn't so important because the only thing he will be deep striking is the drop-pod but in turn two and later you should be trying to have tempest wrath up every time until his assault marines are fairly weakened. The reason for this is that it SHOULD discourage him from deep striking them within 24" due to the dangerous terrain test and if hes flying them across the field they will need to take the dangerous every movement phase if they start or end within the 24". Also, this could be just how i have interpreted the rules but i am fairly certain you have to take one set of test for starting in dangerous terrain and one for ending in dangerous terrain.

 

the other thing i would add which goes with the whole slowing his army down is that you need to initiate the charges. Even though we do have counter-attack, denying them their furious charge is far more important in the grand scheme of things.

[adamv6]

I am a GK player, but watch this forum as my son has a decent SW army.

 

He played against Mephi at the weekend, and took Arjac. Arjac turned him into a soft squashy thing. Got to love a character that hunts ICs and has a S10 hammer :)

[Brother Crazywolf]

Thanks fo the ideas. I will have consider making an Arjac model soon. I have been thinking about it and this just reinforces my ideas.

[elithren]

Something that needs to be said, Meph is T6 and cant be instant squished based on just strength. He doesn't have EW and no invuln save. So, use alot of AP 2 shots and power weapons on him since he cant block them. And he is a psyker with a hood, so can potentially shut down your tempest wrath.

[Karack Blackstone]

So here is another candidae list taking into account the feedback I have gotten above.

 

HQ:

 

Stormcaller (RTDA)

 

Elites:

 

Wolf Guard (TDA) x 4 with Stormcaller

- 1x power weapon and stormbolter

- 3x power fist and stormbolter

Wolf Guard (PA) with Grey Hunters

2x Power Fist / Bolter (With Plasma Gun Hunters)

2x Power Weapon / Plasma Pistol / meltabombs (With Flamer Hunters)

Dread (Multi Melta & Heavy Flamer, WTN) drop pod + deathwind

Lone wolf (TDA, PF, Stormbolter, meltabombs)

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Heavy Bolter)

Land Speeder Tornado (Heavy Flamer/Multi Melta)

 

Troops:

 

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, Rhino) x 1

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun) on foot.

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power Weapon, Flamer, Drop pod) x 1

9 Grey Hunters (Wolf Standard, Power weapon, Flamer) on foot.

 

Heavy Support:

 

Long Fangs (Pack Leader, 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Missle Launcher, 1x Lascannon, Twin Linked Lascannon Razorback)

Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Autocannon)

 

Comes in at 1999 after overhauling my math twice. Sucks being tired.

 

Does this look more survivable?

 

If you're looking to ID enemy BA models, three fists seems okay; however, with PW being just as strong (at ignoring armor saves) and faster, maybe consider Frost Blades on two, or two PW's? You get the same general result, but having one Sarge model basically, and then three others seems like making something nasty to fight is being lost in this area.

 

Also, you'll be quite a bit happier with the PW/PF pairs in your GH's due to having the WG bring the cheaper and better fist.

 

Most people tend to use a Lone Wolf with a Storm Shield to make keeping them alive easier on the player. Doing so seems based on giving them a TH/SS weapon setup, making them very dangerous and vastly more fun to wallop their way through the enemy. You don't have to, however, a Wolf Claw or Thunder Hammer may make that LW a very big threat.

[Brother Crazywolf]

@elithren: thanks for the tip. I will do my best with it.

 

@karack: I am not quite getting the pf/pw comment for grey hunters. Maybe I am just being dense. I would run the lone wolf with a ss but I don't have it modeled that way rigt now (another thing I plan on fixing) and the same goes with the tda troops. I have two boxes of termis on my shopping list at the moment. Along with a whole bunch of other stuff. I am slowly building up my model count. But that is the price that I have to pay at the moment.

[adamv6]

I spoke with my son and asked him how it cracked Mephi, and was quiet impressed with his tactical nous (he is only 9!). He stayed 4" away, threw the hammer first (AP1 at 6"), then assaulted him. He managed to save numerous hits (+3 inv storm shield ;) ), and then buried him on his attacks.

 

My son was saying as well that while Arjac is alot of points, the managed to keep his squad alive longer than he normally does, due to the +3 inv and wound allocation.

[Karack Blackstone]

@karack: I am not quite getting the pf/pw comment for grey hunters. Maybe I am just being dense. I would run the lone wolf with a ss but I don't have it modeled that way rigt now (another thing I plan on fixing) and the same goes with the tda troops. I have two boxes of termis on my shopping list at the moment. Along with a whole bunch of other stuff. I am slowly building up my model count. But that is the price that I have to pay at the moment.

 

What I was not saying very well is that on a WG, a PF is cheaper, provides more attacks base (WG does), and will grant you more Ld by one point, which actually does a great deal.

 

WGPL with Fist

9 GH, PW, MG/PG, Rhino/Drop Pod

 

This is a great unit for a core choice like troops; customize as one wishes, and then simply take more of them.

[Scyld Fireblade]

If I were you I would drop all of the vehicles. You will render his lascannons ineffective and be able to field many more marines. He has minimal firepower so greyhunters can shoot him up and then swamp him with a 2 or 3-1 ratio. I also love TWC; fleet, rending attacks, and S&T 5. On top of that no instant kill unless S 10 and if you give one a PF he gets 4 S10 attacks.

 

A WL on a TW, with the right equipment, and Saga of the Bear can easily match(in my experience surpass) Mephiston.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

As long as you can become an ambi-turner, you should be able to give the Blood Angels a run for their money, even if Meph is trying to get all Blue Steel^TM on you.

 

:teehee:

[Karack Blackstone]

If I were you I would drop all of the vehicles. You will render his lascannons ineffective and be able to field many more marines. He has minimal firepower so greyhunters can shoot him up and then swamp him with a 2 or 3-1 ratio. I also love TWC; fleet, rending attacks, and S&T 5. On top of that no instant kill unless S 10 and if you give one a PF he gets 4 S10 attacks.

 

A WL on a TW, with the right equipment, and Saga of the Bear can easily match(in my experience surpass) Mephiston.

 

The problem with being all on foot is that without the vehicle taking the hits, enough low AP will simply wipe the floor with him. BA is last I checked still a Space Marine army; unless they can't get PC on their Dev equivalent units, there's nothing served by taking away a literal layer of armor against such a weapon. Yes, spread out it won't as much; however, no matter what is hit, it's a sure kill if the wound is made.

 

I've been tabled once by an all footsloggers infantry by Tau, the BA's are mostly an in your face list. The fact that they likely still have some anti-PA stuff is a real problem, since that's pretty quick to rotate in if both people are not taking all-comers lists, and can adjust based upon what the opponent is taking, which sounds like the case.

 

The tactic may work for him, that you mention. I simply feel the need to point out that such an occurrence as what I had happen to me is also not impossible. Two footslogger armies tends to favor the stronger footsloggers.

 

I'd say Ragnar and a full unit of GH's or WG all in PA may be a better angle, however, the OP should know how much anti-AV his opponent favors.

 

Weighing the two options and the advice here against what only the OP knows is likely the better approach. The best approach, only the OP can know, in this case.

[Scyld Fireblade]

If I were you I would drop all of the vehicles. You will render his lascannons ineffective and be able to field many more marines. He has minimal firepower so greyhunters can shoot him up and then swamp him with a 2 or 3-1 ratio. I also love TWC; fleet, rending attacks, and S&T 5. On top of that no instant kill unless S 10 and if you give one a PF he gets 4 S10 attacks.

 

A WL on a TW, with the right equipment, and Saga of the Bear can easily match(in my experience surpass) Mephiston.

 

The problem with being all on foot is that without the vehicle taking the hits, enough low AP will simply wipe the floor with him. BA is last I checked still a Space Marine army; unless they can't get PC on their Dev equivalent units, there's nothing served by taking away a literal layer of armor against such a weapon. Yes, spread out it won't as much; however, no matter what is hit, it's a sure kill if the wound is made.

 

I've been tabled once by an all footsloggers infantry by Tau, the BA's are mostly an in your face list. The fact that they likely still have some anti-PA stuff is a real problem, since that's pretty quick to rotate in if both people are not taking all-comers lists, and can adjust based upon what the opponent is taking, which sounds like the case.

 

The tactic may work for him, that you mention. I simply feel the need to point out that such an occurrence as what I had happen to me is also not impossible. Two footslogger armies tends to favor the stronger footsloggers.

 

I'd say Ragnar and a full unit of GH's or WG all in PA may be a better angle, however, the OP should know how much anti-AV his opponent favors.

 

Weighing the two options and the advice here against what only the OP knows is likely the better approach. The best approach, only the OP can know, in this case.

 

I always field an all foot army which works as an all comers list. I also have three regular opponents who field BA lists that they constantly tailor to make more effective against marines, one only uses plasma for his special weapons. I have not changed my list in over a year and I have won over 50 games in that time. The only army I have never had the opportunity to fight is sisters.

 

His opponent has alot of lascannons so that he can slaughter any tanks, making them ineffective for their points cost. He is better off doubling his numbers. I like to be hyper aggressive, but if that is not his style then he can sit in cover. A 4+ cover save is still effective against plasma. Then the BA have to come dig him out, and he can overrun them with both numbers and skill.

[Wysten]

Aye, though theres always the reverse. If you have them mounted in a Rhino, is it nessiary to take the full amount? After all, a single, or pair of Grey Hunters shaved off 4 packs results in 60 points being freed, with an additional one somewhere to allow the rhino to hold the Rune Priest in it (in most situations anyways, not realy applicable here since your using Njal. Though if you ever wanted to drop the terminator armour at a later date it could be worth considering.) which is enough for another land speeder. Armour is very much quaunty and firepower over any armour quaility nowadays.

[Brother Crazywolf]

Lots of good discussion here brothers. I thank you for that.

 

@Karack: I did end up running two packs of those last night. And it did work very well. That very well may be a staple in the future.

 

I did get a draw last night due to the mission type (c&c with dawn of war). We agreed to run these lists (or at least very similar) again with a different set of mission rules to truly see how things will go. I do have to say that Njal earned his points by nulling the snot out of Mephiston, and Tempest Wrath kept his JP squads grounded as well. I didn't get too much more shooting in as he got stuck in combat until the Furioso cacked him. Mephiston ended up getting dinged up a bit by Lord of the Tempests. A WG with a powerfist hammered him for 3 more wounds and the the melta speeder finished him off.

 

I ended up castling up with terrain and drop pods limiting the angels a fair bit. I didn't get the chance to get my fangs up and running before they were assaulted by the DC, but they held their own.

 

My dread and the heavy bolter speeder got immobilized early on so that might have changed things. I think he spent a fair bit of time trying to hammer his way through my castle to get to my troops. At the top of the 6th it looked impossible for either one of use to win so we finished the turn and called it a draw.

 

So after a fair bit of discussion and a few laughs we are going to try again. Still time for some tactical evals and more hard thinking.

 

As a high point for me and frustration for him, and funny for both of us, the DC marine with the power fist could not kill anything. He either missed his to hit rolls or when he made those he bombed his wounding. We were both laughing at that. Granted I couldn't just put him out of his misery either. Predacon said he would visit too and share his side.

[Brother Crazywolf]

Thanks for the input again brothers. I really do appreciate it. This is part of why I like the Fang so much. Any other suggestions presented will be considered and I will post any progress or tweaks I make to my list.

 

Crazywolf

[Brother Predacon]

So... six turns later and we have a draw. Dawn of war really delayed any action until turn 3. And the fact that my DC couldn't hurt anything...