kabouri Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hi guys, Yesterday, I was reading again the battle of the fang, and I have a question. Unless I missed something, indeed, there are no successor chapters of the SW ? . And , their, lost now, research for a flawless gene seed would have given them the ability to create an all new breed of space marines ? Is this was something like the project the raven guard tried to do ? (with the known results). Thank you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Corax tried to mass produce Astartes to catch up due to his loss. The tampering is about curbing the quirks of Canis Helix such as being Fenris stock exclusive and curse of Wulfen. So they are not same exactly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Unless I missed something, indeed, there are no successor chapters of the SW ? Indeed. Though the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters at the time of the Second Founding, the newly created Wolf Brothers Chapter was "ill fated" and destroyed/lost at some later point. They also seemed to be unstable, and the High Lords decided against further using the Space Wolves gene-seed n the creation of new Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishSmurf96 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The Wolf Brothers were the only SW successors, they were ill fated because they were away from Fenris. Being away from their home planet for good seemed to drive them insane and mutation followed. (Look at battle for the fang as this is where I got this Information from) Tom Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yeah that's right no successor chapters for the Space Wolves. Something about their genetic makeup doesn't like off world successor chapters. p.s. Job done by the Thousand Sons :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The Raven Guard were actually successful, it was just that their last batch of recruits were tampered with and that forced them to the conclusion that none of it would ever work. The Wolf Brothers were the only successor ever mentioned and other than Lexicanum, the only mention of a Wolf Brother Marine I have ever seen was the one Renegade in Dead Sky, Black Sun who was travelling with Adaric Vaanes. Don't really know what happened to him because you see him when Honsou approaches Vaanes for a partnership, but then he disappears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Side effect of old fluff vs new. Old days, there were only like 3000 Spess Wulfs left after the Scouring (compared to say, ~25,000 Ultramarines or 5 or 6000 Imperial Fists, for example). Spess Wulfs split in half because Leman Russ wasn't gonna be told what to do by no beardless son of a biscuit like Guilliman but he saw what happened when Dorn tried to get all uppity. Wulf Brothas gene seed ended up being unstable, and they were expunged. New HH fluff multiplied the number of Spess Mahreens by around 10, (250,000 Ultramarines), and changed up the events slightly, so the number of leftover Spess Wulfs at the end of the Scouring, or the new explanation of why there was only one SW successor hasn't been unveiled yet. Lots of ways to interpret it for now, but I think at this point you just have to accept the gigantic plot hole, wait for it to be filled, and hope it isn't by a dump truck full of garbage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2997952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i do remember A D-B saying somewhere on B&C that with the number or marines per legion being officially increased to 100,000, that he would be very suprised to see if the Wolves had no successor chapters aside from the Wolf Brothers whtn things are all said and done. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i do remember A D-B saying somewhere on B&C that with the number or marines per legion being officially increased to 100,000, that he would be very suprised to see if the Wolves had no successor chapters aside from the Wolf Brothers whtn things are all said and done. WLK I agree. Space Wolf Numbers and being split once does not make sense with 100k marines standard. Even 80k if they were considered "small" like the RG. New fluff will need to arise to fill the gap in understanding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 p.s. Job done by the Thousand Sons :sweat: In a way the SW are not much better off than the TSon numerically speaking. 90% of the TSons were lost on Prospero. I believe the TSons had 10,000 marines (they were a very small legion). The Space Wolves were at least 100,000 strong pre-Heresy. Now in 40K, they've been reduced to a single chapter of 1,000 (no more than 2,000 if we go with higher estimates) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 At the very least they have around 1,200 because they always seem to have 12 companies at full strength. How, I don't know but that's just the way it. Blasted pups and their rune magic. At any rate, it will probably be they had that many losses while fighting the KSons at Prospero and then at whatever battles they fought in for the rest of the Heresy and the Scouring. And weren't they suppose to lose an entire company that went gallivanting off into the Eye? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 At the very least they have around 1,200 because they always seem to have 12 companies at full strength. How, I don't know but that's just the way it. Blasted pups and their rune magic. At any rate, it will probably be they had that many losses while fighting the KSons at Prospero and then at whatever battles they fought in for the rest of the Heresy and the Scouring. And weren't they suppose to lose an entire company that went gallivanting off into the Eye? just to skewer than number, our great companies dont follow the standard company size. Ragnar Blackmane has the 2nd largest great company (logan grimnar has the largest), with ragnar having "almost 200 battle-hardened warriors" there is a sticky post in the Fang subforum where we debate this out, usually coming out around 1800 to 2100 Wolves. go fact check (as much is possible with GW...) there for more details. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Oh trust me I know. I was just going with the estimate that was placed in the post before mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 p.s. Job done by the Thousand Sons :woot: In a way the SW are not much better off than the TSon numerically speaking. 90% of the TSons were lost on Prospero. I believe the TSons had 10,000 marines (they were a very small legion). This seems like it will be TBL's "out" with the Space Wolves. Sustained casualties through Propsero/Heresy/Scouring that Fenris's population can't replace fast enough. Legion to Legion combat, assaulting a defended objective is costly. I don't think the Space Wolves' casualty numbers from Prospero have been definitely disclosed (correct me if I am wrong). Even if we suggest they might be uniquely suited to, and experienced with, fighting their brother Spess Mahreens (alluding to the HH suggestions that they hay have been used to cull the II or XI Legion), they had to have taken significant damage from the combined PDF, Marines, and the Thousand Sons' psychic powers. We'll see though... eventually. I think this plot hole will be in limbo for a long time to come, however. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I had the maximum estimate for the Wolves' numbers at 2000...you guys say 2100 is more accurate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I had the maximum estimate for the Wolves' numbers at 2000...you guys say 2100 is more accurate? well, here is a link to the (so far) 5 page debate on the numbers of the Space Wolves Chapter: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=217651 My personal opinion is that we are actually closer to 2400 strong (when we are at full strength, so probably around 2100-2250 at regular times), but this isnt the topic to debate that point. (the attached thread is the right place for those who want to) another point, Bran Redmaw is said in IA11 to bring 200 Warriors to battle. so thats atleast 3 of the 12 great companies rocking around 200 strong) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 but this isnt the topic to debate that point. Yeah, my point was that the SW shrank a lot during and after the Heresy. They went from at least 100,000 to let's say 2,500 at most (going with your highest estimate). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Technically that would be 5000 since half the Space Wolves became Wolf Brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Technically that would be 5000 since half the Space Wolves became Wolf Brothers. Not really because the Wolf Brothers swiftly died out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Technically that would be 5000 since half the Space Wolves became Wolf Brothers. Not really because the Wolf Brothers swiftly died out Well, alot of my earlier opinion was based off the 10k legion size, not 100k. SO the maths may be a bit off now. but, to reinforce not many Wolves made it out of the Heresy "era" we have... ---the Invasion of Prospero. No longer a complete sneak attack, we now have Russ warning Magnus (or attempting to) and the Thousand Sons prepping the defense of their home world. (sure, without Magnus's help initially, but he managed to kill a fair amount of Wolves once he got into the game) ---The Alpha Legion's ambush of the Wolves fleet, and the Wolves then doing whatever they could to draw the AL away from Terra ---the Wolves and Dark Angels march to Terra, where Russ insisted on stopping at key planets along the way to save the empire. through all of these (and probably more, i'm tired and could have forgotten quite a bit) the Wolves are attacking attacking attacking the Traitors. then the big showdown at Terra is followed closely by the Scouring, which Russ would have forced his Wolves into to avenge the Emperor. So we have a legion forced through 7 years of the most brutal warfare they ever faced, then immedately launching itself into purging the Traitors in the surrounding systems. By the time this is all said and done, the Legion is a shadow of itself and spilts down the middle once to appease Guilliman (making the Wolf Brothers). WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabouri Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thanks guys for you replies :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Technically that would be 5000 since half the Space Wolves became Wolf Brothers. Not really because the Wolf Brothers swiftly died out ---the Invasion of Prospero. No longer a complete sneak attack, we now have Russ warning Magnus (or attempting to) and the Thousand Sons prepping the defense of their home world. (sure, without Magnus's help initially, but he managed to kill a fair amount of Wolves once he got into the game) I agree with most of what you say, but not with the above. How was it not a complete surprise attack? I'm assuming you've read A Thousand Sons. Magnus deliberately kept his legion ignorant of the impending attack. Magnus killed a TSons captain (and several other marines) just to prevent them from informing their comrades. Magnus sent a large portion of the defensive fleet away from Prospero and ensured that the planetary defenses were lowered. It was one of the greatest betrayals a primarch perpetrated against his own legion. Magnus' intent was to accept the Emperor's sanction without fighting back. He did everything in his power to prevent his legion from mounting an effective defense. The TSons discovered there was an invasion coming their way literally at the last minute when the Wolves were already breaching their defenses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pall Ironbear Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The very fact Magnus knew, means it's not a complete surprise attack...a technicality perhaps ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 It's semantics because the people who actually bothered to defend Prospero had no idea it was coming until it happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Just not sure how much headway we can make on this if old fluff has not been synergized with new fluff (100, 000). The numbers don't add up. I suspect if they do correct it, GW will have to invent some new fluff decimating the wolves. I'm guessing some event or events during the Scouring and or major losses versus the Alpha Legion on the way to Terra during the Heresy war. Thr things which will probably not change....1. Current size range as identified in the codex, 2. the move to 100k approx per legion vs 10k and 3. No Successors other than the Wolf Brothers(the final nail in the coffin being "The Battle for the Fang". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247550-no-sw-successor-chapters/#findComment-2998776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.