Enzephalon Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hi guys, I will soon paint the furioso librarian I have standing here on my desk for ages. So I was flipping through the rules to be prepared to field him. Now I have this question and need your wisdom: The furioso librarian variant is equipped with a blood fist (dreadnought close combat weapon) and a force weapon. Do I get an additional attack for having two close combat weapons? In the basic rule book it says, that you do not get any additional attacks if the model is wielding two different special weapons of any kind, and you can only use one of their abilities at a time. (Does this even count for walkers?) Further question is.... Does the DCCW count as a special weapon (since it is treated as a power weapon; ignoring armour saves) or is it a regular close combat weapon? I came up with two scenarios: A.) I charge: 2 attacks base, + 1 for the extra weapon, + 1 for the charge, Str 10, ignoring armour and when I wound a model with multiple wounds I can take a psychic test to eventually instant kill it. OR B.) I charge: 2 attacks base, no extra attack for the second weapon, + 1 for the charge -> decide to use blood fist or force weapon: -> Str 10, ignoring armour or -> Str 6 with the option to instant kill a multiple wounds model I'm asking this because scenario B makes this guy much more inefficient and the force weapon would be nearly useless. Why should I use it's ability while losing Str 10 and negating armour? EDIT: Of course you can share your experiences with this guy too. Would be highly appreciated. Concerning the psychic powers I would take might of heroes + wings of Sanguinius when foot slogging and might + blood lance if I field him in a drop pod. EDIT: Hey guys, This discussion inspired me to finally paint the guy, instead of some more assault marines. So I will hijack my own thread. ^^ This is the result of the past 7 hours. Hope you like him http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/2/21/332150_md-.JPG http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/2/21/332149_md-.JPG http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/2/21/332151_md-.JPG http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/2/21/332152_md-.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan II Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 force weapon counts as PW weapon with insta death so you still negate armour for the rest me not knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 force weapon counts as PW weapon with insta death so you still negate armour for the rest me not knows My bad.... Your right with this one. But it still leaves me with the question if I get the extra attack with Str 10 or 6.... Thanks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 This is specifically answered under the Blood Fist entry on pg 60 of the codex. You get the extra attack for having 2 weapons but you must choose which one to use on any given turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The furioso librarian variant is equipped with a blood fist (dreadnought close combat weapon) and a force weapon.Do I get an additional attack for having two close combat weapons? This is covered under the Blood Fist entry in your Codex, Pg.60. All your other questions are answered there, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As far I have been playing mine furiouso Lib, I have used FW as additional DCCW as it is stated that way in his entry. Therefore you can dish out 2 base (2-3, not sure with base as I don’t have my dex here) + 1 charge + 1DCCW + D3 Might of Ancients /Heroes power, all this at S10. I have run him this way at local tourney and judges were ok with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thank you very much for your responses. So it's basically +1 attack and the decision between Str 10 / Str 6 + optional instant kill... That's good to hear. @BloodTzar: What were your experiences with this guy? Did you like him? What was his role in your army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 force weapon counts as PW weapon with insta death so you still negate armour for the rest me not knows My bad.... Your right with this one. But it still leaves me with the question if I get the extra attack with Str 10 or 6.... Thanks though. You get the extra attack but have to make all of them with the same weapon. It's an exception to the normal rules though. p60 in the codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan II Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 no experience at al just bought a bunch of BA and started playing them still looking for help for a tornie nzxt month xp but the furioso is a must in the list xp and the + d3 + flying dred why not btw how do flying dreds count (wings of sanguinis) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have used mine Lib Dread with Wings and Might, used him as counter charge unit -or- to deal with some nasty IC's or DS's, he excels in this. (Dual SR list) He has done very well against He'Stan + Assault termies as most of them needed 5+ to hurt him. On the other hand it might not be that obvious, but he is very fragile, he needs to get into CC ASAP. Otherwise every unsaved pen hurts; moreover perils are S4 glance on back even in CC. Therefore, I would compare him to TDA EPI lib, both can use 2 powers a turn (S10 = DCCW), both can support your troops somehow, but both can die as fast. (I do even think they cost the same: D) Overall, I think he is quite nice addition if you need fast CC monster with hood in Elite slot (in some builds this is must), but do not expect wonders. In school terms, it would be something around B-. Hope it helps. ~BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have used mine Lib Dread with Wings and Might, used him as counter charge unit -or- to deal with some nasty IC's or DS's, he excels in this. (Dual SR list) He has done very well against He'Stan + Assault termies as most of them needed 5+ to hurt him. On the other hand it might not be that obvious, but he is very fragile, he needs to get into CC ASAP. Otherwise every unsaved pen hurts; moreover perils are S4 glance on back even in CC. Therefore, I would compare him to TDA EPI lib, both can use 2 powers a turn (S10 = DCCW), both can support your troops somehow, but both can die as fast. (I do even think they cost the same: D) Overall, I think he is quite nice addition if you need fast CC monster with hood in Elite slot (in some builds this is must), but do not expect wonders. In school terms, it would be something around B-. Hope it helps. ~BT It helps indeed. Since I'm playing on a friendly level most of the time I do not care about super-effectiveness. Seems like this guy is the right choice for some nice games. About him being fragile. I no this from my regular furioso. It's hard to believe how often he gets easily killed before doing anything, although he has AV13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan II Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i think you didnt quite get me does he become jump monster infantry walker??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i think you didnt quite get me does he become jump monster infantry walker??? Wings does not make you jump infantry, it makes you move as jump infantry. So he is still a walker who can move as if he was jump infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 i think you didnt quite get me does he become jump monster infantry walker??? Sorry. I did not see your question. But basically it's what JamesI said. Psychic test -> Move like jump infantry (up to 12"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 He needs to get into CC ASAP where he is safe from horrible Meltaguns and lucky Missle Launcher/Lascannon Penetrating hits. Once in combat he wrecks anything without double dice to pen (Chainfists, Monsterous Creatures, Warscythes). Wings and Might of Heroes is the way to go. His attacks are powerful, D3 extra every assault phase including opponents? Yes please. Pen hits hurt yes, you have to hope for a Shaken or Weapon Destroyed Result, no extra armour so stuns hurt bad. Keep away from Meltaguns! Because he's fast it's easy enough to leave him far back out of fast Multi-Melta reach, but still have him able to bail the rest of your army out from enemy close combat nastiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As a reminder, as it appears some people here don't read the BA Codex as closely as they should... The Furioso Librarian can only use one Psychic Power per player turn (pg. 29). Not a big draw back, but it does limit you a little bit. Wings does seem like a No Brainer for this guy, but Shield of Sanguinious is a great power for him as well. If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As a reminder, as it appears some people here don't read the BA Codex as closely as they should... The Furioso Librarian can only use one Psychic Power per player turn (pg. 29). Not a big draw back, but it does limit you a little bit. Wings does seem like a No Brainer for this guy, but Shield of Sanguinious is a great power for him as well. If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Tam, remember that is 1 power per player turn. Wings cast in your turn, shield in your opponents turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Usually aura effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle rather than the base, I believe. If that's the case and vertical distance (from the flight stand) isn't taken into consideration--and I don't believe it would be--then a Libby in a Storm Raven covers a LOT of area; not only because the Storm Raven is a large model, but because a tank could move right alongside the raven's base and actually be under the model, allowing you to cram even more stuff within 6". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Usually aura effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle rather than the base, I believe. If that's the case and vertical distance (from the flight stand) isn't taken into consideration--and I don't believe it would be--then a Libby in a Storm Raven covers a LOT of area; not only because the Storm Raven is a large model, but because a tank could move right alongside the raven's base and actually be under the model, allowing you to cram even more stuff within 6". That is correct. Skimmers use their hull for all measurements (except measuring weapons ranges and assaults) as noted on Pg.71 of the BRB. Although vertical distance is taken into account, thus it's 6" from the hull which is normally 6-ish" above the gaming table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Although I can concede that thematically it makes sense, for tabletop usage, that's horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Usually aura effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle rather than the base, I believe. Can you point out where I can find this in the BRB? I was sure that I read that anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Just seen the pics of your dreadnought and I'd just like to say that it's gorgeous and I hate you Kardion. /cry ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Just seen the pics of your dreadnought and I'd just like to say that it's gorgeous and I hate you Kardion. /cry ;) http://www.memecreator.net/futurama-fry/showimage.php/1070/Not-sure-if-compliment-Or-thinly-veiled-insult.jpg :D Thank you! I really appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Usually aura effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle rather than the base, I believe. If that's the case and vertical distance (from the flight stand) isn't taken into consideration--and I don't believe it would be--then a Libby in a Storm Raven covers a LOT of area; not only because the Storm Raven is a large model, but because a tank could move right alongside the raven's base and actually be under the model, allowing you to cram even more stuff within 6". There is nothing saying that the Storm Raven has to be on a flying stand, only on a base. I've seen it modeled with the landing gear down and no base at all... though that is bending the rules a bit IMHO. Incidentally, thanks to that skimmer rule on pg. 71, you ignore the base for everything but assault. There is also the special rules under the Storm Raven about it's base. It wasn't really fun the one time a Storm Raven was parked an inch away from one of my units, the guys jumped out the side access hatch within 2" of the base, then assaulted me across the base of the Storm Raven. It's fantastic that you measure assaults from the base of the Storm Raven, but everything else (shooting, movement, aura effects) from it's hull. I hope this gets cleared up a bit in 6th ed, as I've seen the skimmer rule abused way, way too much (measuring from the spikey bits on a Dark Eldar Raider for example for embarking/disembarking units because it's almost impossible to figure out where the hull ends and the spikey bit begins...). Love the paint job on the Furioso! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If he is flying around in a Storm Raven... you won't need Wings and it is kinda nice having that big huge base to measure a 6" bubble. Usually aura effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle rather than the base, I believe. If that's the case and vertical distance (from the flight stand) isn't taken into consideration--and I don't believe it would be--then a Libby in a Storm Raven covers a LOT of area; not only because the Storm Raven is a large model, but because a tank could move right alongside the raven's base and actually be under the model, allowing you to cram even more stuff within 6". There is nothing saying that the Storm Raven has to be on a flying stand, only on a base. I've seen it modeled with the landing gear down and no base at all... though that is bending the rules a bit IMHO. Incidentally, thanks to that skimmer rule on pg. 71, you ignore the base for everything but assault. There is also the special rules under the Storm Raven about it's base. It wasn't really fun the one time a Storm Raven was parked an inch away from one of my units, the guys jumped out the side access hatch within 2" of the base, then assaulted me across the base of the Storm Raven. It's fantastic that you measure assaults from the base of the Storm Raven, but everything else (shooting, movement, aura effects) from it's hull. I hope this gets cleared up a bit in 6th ed, as I've seen the skimmer rule abused way, way too much (measuring from the spikey bits on a Dark Eldar Raider for example for embarking/disembarking units because it's almost impossible to figure out where the hull ends and the spikey bit begins...). Love the paint job on the Furioso! :D Page 3: Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game. "As mounting your models on different sized bass might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this." So, more than just bending the rules I think. and Kardion, you will find the rules you're looking for on pg 66 - Embarking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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