MadMek83 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hello everyone! After 3rd real blood angels game with 500P army I learned today valuable lessons how tailored list need to be apllied pointwise. I've run regular 10x ASM with 2 Melta and power fist on games nothing but marines. I've build my marines for 1500p + games with vehicles yet so far games have been with small point armies. running librarian with 15 marines was good achivement now when I actually start thinking what my enemy has and what I have and reviewed my list... I could really bang my head against the table realizing what I've done wrong. I could have run 10x assault marines and 8 assault marines without upgrades or 2x 9 marines + captain with lightning claws and jump packs giving my 19 bodies on field against my friends 21 and get more devastation as let's face it: melta's are for tanks not against marines... Powerfists even less... And it took me three games actually figure this out. I am bringing shame for the Sanguinius. I always brought my 235P unit with melta's and power fists... I blaim it combination of lazyness and stupidity but next time my friends will have two larger force of sons of sanginius jumping towards them and not one big and ineffectively equipped unit and one 5 man unit with PF and melta... Next game its nothing but bolt pistols and chainswords brining death to sons of MacRagge... considering I've destroyed with already ineffectively equipped 10 man unit 1 to 1,5 of his tactical units out of 2 what I've learned should mean devastation next games... Still, 3 games it took me figure out: get the anti-tank weapons out and bring more bodies to game you dang noob and watch those upgrades what are they for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Wow. My experience is the opposite of yours. I would always take 10 man squads with 2 meltas and a fist. Always. Almost always, when I fight other marines, the meltas and fist kill more than the rest of the squad combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Wow. My experience is the opposite of yours. I would always take 10 man squads with 2 meltas and a fist. Always. Almost always, when I fight other marines, the meltas and fist kill more than the rest of the squad combined. Agreed. Most attacks that don't ignore armor are going to bounce off. Furious charge helps but at the end of the day the meltas and fist do most of the heavy lifting in CC or shooting against MEQ. You also can't forget that they are sources of Str 8 which insta-kills most multi wound characters and units. What I've learned is a guy given a melta gun will kill far more points than his boltpistol CCW brother ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Like said, 500P games are small. One character has Iron Halo and I am not really sure about if I can single out IC in shooting phase (I really need to get my own copy of 5th edition rules asap), then would melta's kinda make sense. But so far in all my small games I've rather run out bodies than having troubles of killing anything but things with invulnerable saves and once in Close Combat, melta's kinda don't work for me. I had today extremely filled terrain with alot broken down walls making maneuvering jump packs very hard when my oppoennt could place first his troops in optimal places for gunline behind half-heigh broken down stone wall making assaulting really pain, bit like what happened in Vicksburg battle. i guess melta's use is quite dependable on terrain too. Against pure infantry if its quite open, melt'as make sense... But todays battle, powerfists and metla's were not worth of their costs. I would have so much better been done 3 extra men, so I could have attacked both companies together and not getting one small company shredded and then needed to assault two tactical squad with single assault marine squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Like said, 500P games are small. One character has Iron Halo and I am not really sure about if I can single out IC in shooting phase (I really need to get my own copy of 5th edition rules asap), then would melta's kinda make sense. But so far in all my small games I've rather run out bodies than having troubles of killing anything but things with invulnerable saves and once in Close Combat, melta's kinda don't work for me. I had today extremely filled terrain with alot broken down walls making maneuvering jump packs very hard when my oppoennt could place first his troops in optimal places for gunline behind half-heigh broken down stone wall making assaulting really pain, bit like what happened in Vicksburg battle. i guess melta's use is quite dependable on terrain too. Against pure infantry if its quite open, melt'as make sense... But todays battle, powerfists and metla's were not worth of their costs. I would have so much better been done 3 extra men, so I could have attacked both companies together and not getting one small company shredded and then needed to assault two tactical squad with single assault marine squad... You mentioned Power Fists AND melta guns which is why I mentioned shooting and CC. I made no claim that meltas can pick out targets shooting, that's what power fists in CC are for. Math Hammer Reality #1. Sargent w/Power Fist vs #2. 2 RAS w/BP and CCW On the charge vs MEQ #1. 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.25 kill (1 to 2 kills on average) #2. 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds, .49 kill (0-1 kill on average) Charge vs armor that has not moved (AV10 rear armor is common) #1. 3 attacks, 3 hits, 1.998 penetrating hits, .48 glances #2. 6 attacks, 6 hits, .96 glances -or- 2 krak grenades, 2 hits, .666 penetrating hits, .32 glances Shooting vs MEQ? #1. x2 RAS: x2 meltaguns #2. x3 RAS: BP/CCW #1. 2 shots, 1.332 hits, 1.17 dead #2. 3 shots, 1.98 hits, .99 wounds, .3267 dead The lesson that should be obvious here is that against MEQ mundane attacks just bounce off. In your instance sure three more guys might have let you charge another tac squad but they would have bounced off and done little to no damage. Now in small point games concessions can and should be made to get a few more bodies but this is where you sub in a power sword instead of a fist or maybe run a melta gun and a flamer rather than two meltas because flexibility is king in small point games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sorry to say, But you should not make summarize your army build upon such a small scale army build. That 235 point ASM (2 melta, PF) is bread and butter for most of the builds, therefore you better learn now how to use such a squad for later on.Which is better than a gimmick squads (9man one melta etc.) for your 1500+ builds. On the other hand my fav 500 build: Reclusiarch 5xScouts with sniper rifles 11xDC (TH +2PW) or 14xDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sorry to say, But you should not make summarize your army build upon such a small scale army build. That 235 point ASM (2 melta, PF) is bread and butter for most of the builds, therefore you better learn now how to use such a squad for later on.Which is better than a gimmick squads (9man one melta etc.) for your 1500+ builds. On the other hand my fav 500 build: Reclusiarch 5xScouts with sniper rifles 11xDC (TH +2PW) or 14xDC Like said, all what I said is I learn to review my army lists before any battle and not purely go the 10 ASM - 2 melta and PF for 235 and stick it like its one truth and rest is blasphemy. I've basicly built my ASM squads for 1500P games so obviously they need to rework smaller and pure MEQ games. It just seems like everywhere I look the 10 ASM, 2 melta and PF is something people take and swear no matter the enemy. I just learned that you cannot stick to one configuration but you need to be flexible and consider terrain + enemy and then think if squad seems appropriate. Math hammer is neat and everything but its still is theory and on paper. What math hammer cannot account is most fun: the dice luck. I am very sceptical when it comes to theories and all paper work. I highly respect testing and now I am doing testings myself. I am considering perhaps keep one melta and buy srgt infernus, drop the power weapon when playing small games. Put flamer on another team. My dice luck is pretty solid when its my turn to charge, even moving and armour saves intend to suck bit but I throw solidly when assaulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Menchalior, I know in my experience most lists are built to be "all comers". I don't know what the terrain and the enemy will be when I write my list. In that environment, its really hard to beat the 2 melta and a fist for a RAS. If on the other hand, I can react to my opponent's list and the mission/terrain, there are other options I might prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 just how beneficial is the fist against pure MEQ when you know there's no vheicles? I'd now, after reading codecs again point wise and done more research, now I'd rather take power weapon for 10 points cheaper, save 20 points and have 2 power weapon striking at initiative and get 1 more body when playing against pure MEQ list than use power fists on srgt no matter opponent. But then I am beginner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 just how beneficial is the fist against pure MEQ when you know there's no vheicles? I'd now, after reading codecs again point wise and done more research, now I'd rather take power weapon for 10 points cheaper, save 20 points and have 2 power weapon striking at initiative and get 1 more body when playing against pure MEQ list than use power fists on srgt no matter opponent. But then I am beginner... Wound on 2 versus wound on 4 is really useful. Also instant death on ICs. Even knowing I was going against marines with no vehicles, I would lean towards the fist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Also, the fist strikes at different initiative than the rest of the squad. The more wounds you inflict by having a larger squad, the more ability your opponent has to pile all the power weapon wounds onto one or two lone models, and thus decrease his casualties. With a power fist that is the only model striking at I1, there aren't non-powered hits to dillute the damage, and thus every wound is actually a dead model, as opposed to say inflicting 2 power weapon wounds and 9 regular wounds, and having the meltagunner eat both power weapon wounds and everyone else just takes an armor save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sounds like fist has its place after all... I need to think and really get my own copy of 5th edition. Thanks so much for clearing few things ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 A lot of this has to do with rules and Meta at 500 points. those 18 Marines with minimal upgrades are great until 1 opponent throws down a Dread (especially an AV13 dread) that you cannot kill at all. Further that by opponents taking units that your squad cannot beat in hand to hand. I do agree with the OP that squads that are good at one point value are not necessarily as good at other point levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 A lot of this has to do with rules and Meta at 500 points. those 18 Marines with minimal upgrades are great until 1 opponent throws down a Dread (especially an AV13 dread) that you cannot kill at all. Further that by opponents taking units that your squad cannot beat in hand to hand. I do agree with the OP that squads that are good at one point value are not necessarily as good at other point levels. My friends don't have dreads yet... And what kind of dread you can take take on 500P game? As Blood Angels player all I need to do is take some foot slogging DC and drop my WIP DC dreadnought on table, voilá more troop choices and still run few RAS'. Something a vanilla marines cannot do easily in 500P game... but seriously... dread on 500P game? I am at lucky position that I play on very small circle with same guys I've known for 20 or so years. Currently I am not sure any of rest of our circles players can throw 500P game any AV-13 vehicle though. Like in war, intelligence if your greatest weapon. When you roughly know who you play against and what they got makes it easier to build your lists. We want to have fun and not play seriously with blood taste on your mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnaeph34rn473 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Even vanilla marines could easily squeeze in a dreadnought at 500 points. They could run a list like this... Librarian - 100 Dreadnought - 105 10 Man Tactical Squad - 205 - Missile Launcher - Plasma Gun - Power Fist 5 Man Scout Squad - 90 - Sniper Rifles - Camo Cloaks If they wanted to run the tactical squad bare-bones with 5 members, they could even fit two dreadnoughts. A list like that would destroy any sort of BA force without melta or power fists. As others have already said, while it certainly does depend on the point limit you're playing at, in general including two melta and a PF in all your 10 man assault squads is a prudent thing to do. I don't think I've ever been in a match where those upgrades didn't easily make their points back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Even vanilla marines could easily squeeze in a dreadnought at 500 points. They could run a list like this... Librarian - 100 Dreadnought - 105 10 Man Tactical Squad - 205 - Missile Launcher - Plasma Gun - Power Fist 5 Man Scout Squad - 90 - Sniper Rifles - Camo Cloaks If they wanted to run the tactical squad bare-bones with 5 members, they could even fit two dreadnoughts. A list like that would destroy any sort of BA force without melta or power fists. As others have already said, while it certainly does depend on the point limit you're playing at, in general including two melta and a PF in all your 10 man assault squads is a prudent thing to do. I don't think I've ever been in a match where those upgrades didn't easily make their points back. Makes sense but when you know rest players don't have dreadnoughts and we've agreed 500P men only (no vehicles and IC's by agreement) while learning this game and putting all talk back to this context which I probably not expressed at least clearly... So when you KNOW there's no vehicles in the game that does change loadout tactics. All my games have been without vehicles. My ultramarines did got his AOBR dread finally together yesterday and paints it this week end while I finish my 2 furioso's, furioso librarian and start building my DC Dread, I am not really that worried about vehicles. We're getting 750P game with Rhino's soon and 1500P game with "everything ya got in 4 weeks) by that time I hope I get my all dreadnoughts made as well finish my 1500P Black rage army. And you guys should not really worry, my DC is filled with Infernus pistols, fists, hammers and other nasty things.... I am just poundering using regular 2 melta x PF agaisnt regular tactical unit when it does limit your points so heavily that you can get only 5 man unit with librarian and 5 man assaulting against 10 man tactical unit usually ends up poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Makes sense but when you know rest players don't have dreadnoughts and we've agreed 500P men only (no vehicles and IC's by agreement) while learning this game and putting all talk back to this context which I probably not expressed at least clearly... So when you KNOW there's no vehicles in the game that does change loadout tactics. All my games have been without vehicles. My ultramarines did got his AOBR dread finally together yesterday and paints it this week end while I finish my 2 furioso's, furioso librarian and start building my DC Dread, I am not really that worried about vehicles. see all of that is important to know when advising some one if you know there are not going to be any vehicles than dropping melta is something that can be discussed. As for the question of what dreads, pretty much every Marine army can fit any dread in a standard FOC at 500 points (~100 HQ, and ~100 points per troop = 300 points, most dreads come in under 200 points.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Makes sense but when you know rest players don't have dreadnoughts and we've agreed 500P men only (no vehicles and IC's by agreement) while learning this game and putting all talk back to this context which I probably not expressed at least clearly... So when you KNOW there's no vehicles in the game that does change loadout tactics. All my games have been without vehicles. My ultramarines did got his AOBR dread finally together yesterday and paints it this week end while I finish my 2 furioso's, furioso librarian and start building my DC Dread, I am not really that worried about vehicles. see all of that is important to know when advising some one if you know there are not going to be any vehicles than dropping melta is something that can be discussed. As for the question of what dreads, pretty much every Marine army can fit any dread in a standard FOC at 500 points (~100 HQ, and ~100 points per troop = 300 points, most dreads come in under 200 points.) True I got read bit vanilla marines codex and 105P regular dread (like for ours) is not bad point at all. That's funny you mentioned that dread list with scouts... I was actually thinking that same when I found a shop that had some discount for SM sniper scouts... I have kitbashed tactical squad almost finished (I found some old tactical box that I bought over over 15 years ago and I could use legs and bases but rest I gathered from DC boxes (bolsters and backbags) and Asaault marines (heads, shoulder pads extra torsos and such and use them for base of very different type 500P army... Its not terribly blood angelic list... but heck using several different combinations and tactics do make you less predictable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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