Brother_Darius Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 This disuccsion came up recently in another thread, and thought that purhaps it might be best to make the discussion it's own thread. Honestly this has come up several times, but it has typically been left wanting. - We were the Emperor's Personal Guard. - We are more honored because we were the very first I've played since 2nd edition. The only eariler edition would be Rogue Trader days. I've read all the DA HH books. I've even read the HH book "Complied visions". I do not recall any references to us actually being the Emperor's personal bodyguard. The only actual body guards I know of are the Cusoted's and those actually came after all of the SM chapters were done. They were created to accompany into his foreye's into the Webway. While the Dark Angels have been designated with the #1 out of the 20 chapters, I'm not really sure what that means. There is no indication in the fluff that each chapter was only done one at a time. As a matter of fact indications are that all of the Primarches were done at the same time. They were actually all jetisoned into space at the same time..all as infants. I would love to have that extra feather in the DA cap that only us were honored to be the Emperor's personal guard, I just fear that it's not true. My suspicion is that some people just estrapolated that chapters were done one at a time and since we were first we got to accompany him first....making us the personal guard. It then became repeated so many times that it started to be accepted as canon. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE. Could someone find the fluff evidence that we were the personal guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I'd be interested in hearing it as well. There is plenty of 2nd Edition era fluff saying that we were definitely the first created and one even purports that we were the largest legion. While the first bit seems to still be kosher the second one has since been superceded by Ultramarines fluff. As an interesting side note in 2nd it was Roboute who rivaled the success of Horus but in 3rd it became us (in an IA article) but seems to have switched back to the 2nd Edition version Rowboat is the most successful loyalist Primarch again. Sometimes it is bloody hard to follow 40k canon because they seem to love changing small, inconsequential details like that. So as of 2nd our claims to fame are: - First Legion - Largest Legion In 3rd it became: - First Legion - Second most successful Primarch after Horus In 4th/5th it seems to have been scaled back to just us being the first legion with UMs having taken our moniker of being the largest legion as well as one of the most successful (though we stole the latter from them in 3rd). If they went back to describing are legion as larger again (at least in the initial Great Crusade) and outlined how long it took to create each legion then I think the ancient tech angle could still work. But constant canon revisions have turned things a little weird. In any case, the bit of fluff that says we were once the personal Legion of the Emperor is proving to be a stubborn one to find (if it even exists at all!). Part of me is thinking now that it is either a fabrication that has slowly gained momentum on the Internet or that it is an old piece of Rogue Trader background that has since been overwritten. Either way I'd love to find out the source of this little tidbit because I have believed and echoed it for a long bloody time and now I realize that I am unable to find a primary source for it. Edit - By the by the reference to us being the first legion is in the Feast of Malediction entry in the 4th Edition codex so that still appears to be current. In it we are even referred to as the Emperor's right hand though that may be something from our point of view (hard to tell, and again, no book here at work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I'll have a look in my :woot: when I get home from work if you guys haven't already looked by then. I don't think there is anything in there but who knows??? s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yeah I've checked through everything I can get my hands on. The 3rd Edition codex, Angels of Death, Index Astartes DA, the 4th Edition codex and even Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. But this was before work and I did skim quite a bit so it may be in there and I missed it entirely. *shrug* I also don't have as much familiarity with my RT stuff so it may be tucked in there somewhere but I skimmed the core book and Book of the Astronomicon to no avail. I don't have access to the 3rd Edition core book as it was stolen eons ago, and I don't think I have any of the WD compendiums from back during 3rd (and maybe 4th?) so it may be tucked in one of them, but I doubt it. Hell it may even be one of those things mentioned off offhandedly in a WD interview for all I know. I also haven't checked stuff from the Deathwing supplement for Space Hulk (maybe the Bill King story?). My nose is telling me that if it exists at all it is an old bit of fluff from Rogue Trader and probably no good anymore even if it exists. The only sources that I could find online are the 40k Wiki (not the Lexicanium the other one) and on a section of the Fortress of the Unforgiven. But as one is a wiki citing no primary source and the second is a fan site, neither really constitutes a very good source for the information. Oh well. Gah, I hate it when I can't remember where my memories came from... stupid brain. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 When I read the Horus Heresy Collected Visions last year, I did so looking for some support that we were his body guard, but I could not find any really. Nothing out of either of the DA HH books really struck me as support either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I don't think the DA were the Emperor's personal bodyguards - I don't recall hearing anything like that in official fluff ever. If I happen to be wrong, I'd love to hear what the source is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I don't think the DA were the Emperor's personal bodyguards - I don't recall hearing anything like that in official fluff ever. If I happen to be wrong, I'd love to hear what the source is. This^^^ Unless one can quote an official GW source, it's all internet meme! My only reservation is if it's something from RT era. However since it was not followed up I'd say (even if such a thing was mentioned in the RT books - which I no way of knowing) it's been dropped by GW by now, or it would be reproduced in later books. It's not like something you forget to mention. I mean no Codex 2nd ed. onwards and no BL book about the DAs has mentioned such a thing. DAs were the first Legion largely because every legion is designated with a number - so someone has to be number 1. It's just a numerical designation. We can be proud all we like but ultimately it's the actions that shoud be a source of pride, not a numerical designation. And what of number 2 or indeed number 3? Should they be more proud than say, number 13? I don't think so... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If we were the first being created logic dictates that we were the first ones accompanying the Emperor wherever he went (in space). but it's wishfull thinking at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I remember reading about this (and it sticks with me to this day, mostly) way back when I started back in 2E. A fellow player at the time, Praise The Lion! introduced me to what ultimately became my calling... Us! xD And the store at the time kept these little story books that GW (think it was even before they created the Black Library publishing) printed every so often. Had tales of a great many things (many maybe lost today). I recall a mention of just how big The Rock really was, with a small b&w sketch. I want to say the name of it was Firebase, or something. IIRC it shared a name with one of the plastic & Board terrain kits they made back then. Also, I think there was mention of this in the first Index Astartes that were published inside WD mag. How we'd been roaming around alongside The Emperor up until the point he found where Lion El'Jonson ended up and gave control over to him. That we were his original Angels of Death (a name later associated with to Astartes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess i'll have to go with the "internet myth until proven otherwise" but it does leave us with needing a plausible reason for the ancient tech line that's peddled quite a bit unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess i'll have to go with the "internet myth until proven otherwise" but it does leave us with needing a plausible reason for the ancient tech line that's peddled quite a bit unfortunately. The ancient tech line is easy to explain, Jervis needed some way to justify giving DA Tactical squads access to plasma cannons in the v2 3E 'dex (i.e. his lame attempt at making up for the useless v1 3E Codex) and that was what he came up with. As for the DA being the Emperor's bodyguard, I believe its simply a case of some people loosely referencing Rogue Trader era background, and then other people with no first hand knowledge of said background repeating what they've read complete with their own embellishments (in other words, Chinese whisper internet styles). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sometimes it is bloody hard to follow 40k canon because they seem to love changing small, inconsequential details like that. Assume all GW publications are not the objective truth, but an in universe source detailing one point of view. Sort of reading a German and American account of a battle in WWII. Each first founding legion probably has legends of itself being the best in the great crusade. Doesn't mean they were. Just that they thought that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 That would be wonderful except it is always written from a 3rd Person Omniscient viewpoint. If GW wrote things like Catalyst did for the Jihad-era books in Battletech (i.e. written in-universe as a series of conspiracy theories and conjecture until the final book) then I could see that explanation. Unfortunately most GW books are written from the point of view of an external observer who speaks with perfect knowledge of the objective facts of his made up universe. The tone is the major problem here, were the tone not third person and omniscient then I could believe the myth factor. But it the codices are full of small differences and conjecture from the point of view of the faction in question then how does the write, say, know the Lion El'Johnson is still on The Rock? Basically a lot of things that are secret and only know to those with meta-knowledge of the universe are written in the books which automatically means we are not listening to an unreliable narrator but on omniscient being. That said after hours of searching I think I found the entry that caused the initial seed of the meme to develop and oddly, it is the Feast of Malediction entry in the original Rogue Trader rulebook! http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/error12/FoM.png As you can see the language is different than the contemporary one and while it doesn't say we were the Emperor's own Legion it can easily be seen to be the source of such a myth after 25 years of being repeated again and again. Specifically these bits: The Dark Angels are honoured as the first Marine Chapter. They were founded by the Emperor at a time when he still lived in the conventional sense. Within the chapter the title of the Dark Angels' leader is Custodian, and honour which acknowledges the Emperor as the Chapter's true leader. So from this we can actually see that it is possible to read this in a way which makes the Emperor the original commander of the chapter. The gist of it is that the leader of our chapter considers himself a Custodian of the Emperor's chapter instead of its Master. Like the current Feast of Malediction entry, though, this could be read as us simply venerating the Emperor instead of him ever having actually led the chapter. But with that said the way this one is written seems to be the strongest implication I have found to date of the original postulation that the Emperor once led the Dark Angels personally. But considering this tidbit is 25 years old it is safe to say that even if that was the implication that it is probably long gone by now, just like the Tale of Two-heads Talking is currently a fable instead of an actual event. That said, GW seem to be digging around in Rogue Trader a lot for our fluff (the Feast of Malediction entry, and the orbital charge of the Master of the Ravenwing to name a couple) so there is a chance the meme may actually end up becoming canon if the writer in charge gets the same implications that allowed this little oddity to enter the collective unconscious. But yeah, the strongest piece of fluff I have found is not really a direct match for the original myth of the Emperor leading us but it is easily the kind of thing that can morph in to it over time. And with that I am off, I feel at least a little better in having potentially found the source of the myth now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 All of the 1st Founding Legion were founded when the Emperor lived in a conventional sense, and nearly all of the Chapters consider the Emperor their true Leader, not the Lords of Terra. The "personal bodyguard" bit might simply come from the Dark Angels having just hung out with The Emperor on the Great Crusade until their Primarch was finally located, though I don't think the Dark Angels were the only Legion to do that. Where there might be some tidbits is where the stories tell of Terra finally being united, and then the creation of the Primarchs and the Space Marines shortly thereafter. At that point, perhaps there are some Dark Angels references. The genesis and early days of the Chapter alongside The Emperor is certainly a topic that is ripe for exploration in the next codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If and it,s a big if I recall correct it was astelan who mentioned that the DA where the emperor praetorian guard in angels of darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 All of the 1st Founding Legion were founded when the Emperor lived in a conventional sense, and nearly all of the Chapters consider the Emperor their true Leader, not the Lords of Terra. The "personal bodyguard" bit might simply come from the Dark Angels having just hung out with The Emperor on the Great Crusade until their Primarch was finally located, though I don't think the Dark Angels were the only Legion to do that. Where there might be some tidbits is where the stories tell of Terra finally being united, and then the creation of the Primarchs and the Space Marines shortly thereafter. At that point, perhaps there are some Dark Angels references. The genesis and early days of the Chapter alongside The Emperor is certainly a topic that is ripe for exploration in the next codex. It is actually the title of Custodian which is the abnormal bit. All other Space Marine Chapters referred to their leader as Commander during the Rogue Trader era, but Dark Angels were unique in using the term Custodian. As I said, not proof or anything but it makes a good starting point for memetic drift. If and it,s a big if I recall correct it was astelan who mentioned that the DA where the emperor praetorian guard in angels of darkness. Again, nothing really concrete but a few interesting ones that would stoke the meme fires to be sure: 'We were the Dark Angels! We were the first, the best of the Emperor's Legions! The Emperor himself oversaw our founding, our training and our wars. We were the finest warriors in the Imperium, none had conquered more, and none had showed more zeal in battle and more dedication to their dudes. And now our primarch did not trust us! I remember when the Dark Angels cut across the galaxy as the Emperor's own sword. We were the first and greatest, never forget that! We never once knew defeat as we followed the Emperor, I'm not usually one to use BL as a primary source but this is a bit more concrete. But it does beg the question, does anything say that the Emperor oversaw all the un-attached Legions? Because that now seems to be a major sticking point. From those two passages it definitely appears that the Emperor commanded us directly at some point, but I wonder if anything suggests that he didn't do this for others? In any case all this leaves are somewhat strong implications that our position as first meant we had more significance (why would Astelan mention that the Emperor oversaw their founding, training and wars if he did it for all the legions?). Then again Astelan is also the quintessential unreliable narrator so take from that what you will (he mentions they won more victories, which has since been redacted and even prior Horus still had more). In the end I think this only serves to give us a strong source of the material that spawned the "Personal Guard of the Emperor" meme. In any case the fact that we are the first seems to be more significant than some give it credit for so I figure that will definitely play out as a big point in our next codex since there are a lot of directions you can go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 We were the finest warriors in the Imperium, none had conquered more, and none had showed more zeal in battle and more dedication to their dudes. Absolutely love the typo in this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 All of the 1st Founding Legion were founded when the Emperor lived in a conventional sense, and nearly all of the Chapters consider the Emperor their true Leader, not the Lords of Terra. The "personal bodyguard" bit might simply come from the Dark Angels having just hung out with The Emperor on the Great Crusade until their Primarch was finally located, though I don't think the Dark Angels were the only Legion to do that. Where there might be some tidbits is where the stories tell of Terra finally being united, and then the creation of the Primarchs and the Space Marines shortly thereafter. At that point, perhaps there are some Dark Angels references. The genesis and early days of the Chapter alongside The Emperor is certainly a topic that is ripe for exploration in the next codex. It is also interesting to note that things worked very different at the inception of Rogue Trader. It is easy to look back at that bit of fluff about the Feast of Malediction and say that the Emperor did that for all the First Founding chapters. But the Dark Angels were not the first of twenty legions 25 years ago, they were the first of 1000 chapters (the language in the excerpt is important, note that it never mentions legions; those weren't concepts yet). In RT they give the usual list of Space Marine Chapters but this is the list: Blood Angels Blooddrinkers Crimson Fists Dark Angels Flesheaters Iron Hands Rainbow Warriors Silver Skulls Space Wolves Ultramarines White Scars They are listed only as an example of 12 of the 1000 Chapters that exist to give new players an idea of some chapter colours. So while in this day and age we all know about the First Founding, the Emperor's creation of the Primarchs and his creation of the Legions and all the other background we have to remember that these weren't parts of the background 25 years ago. The more I read the original rules the more this becomes apparent and the more plausible how this rumour spread became. Hell it is important to note that Lynn Elgonsen isn't actually a primarch but rather one of the early commanders (Custodians) of the chapter. So in this case being founded by the Emperor himself is actually out of the ordinary because the Emperor apparently didn't personally found the other 999 Chapters that exist today. So from the point of view of 25 years ago the first piece of solid background on the Dark Angels tells that we were founded by the Emperor and he is seen as the true Commander of our Chapter. So here we have the original seed of the current myth. Go a few years down the line and we have concepts like Primarchs and Legions creeping in. The fluff changes and the Emperor creates 20 Primarchs and uses their gene seed to create 20 Legions. But somewhere along the way grizzled RT players tell new, bright eyed players picking up their Angels of Death codex a little about how the Dark Angels used to be back in the day. That impressionable new player takes the RT-era tidbit and the mutation begins. A few years down the line he will be discussing something on the message board and he will talk about an old piece of fluff that talks about how the Emperor once led/is the true leader of the Dark Angels. To other players that started from 1996 on this sounds at least half plausible and so it continues on long past its time in the actual background of the game. It is egged on by little snippets here and there (apparently several from Angels of Darkness, silly typo notwithstanding) and by its own pervasive nature and somewhere along the line it becomes a accepted truth by many despite being rooted in a 25 year old piece of fluff that, with the current 4th Edition re-write of the Feast of Malediction fluff is now well and truly gone and overwritten. It is interesting to see how things have changed in 25 years. We were the finest warriors in the Imperium, none had conquered more, and none had showed more zeal in battle and more dedication to their dudes. Absolutely love the typo in this! Huh, silly ebook. I wonder what the actual line is. Either way that is wonderful and show why you shouldn't be copying and pasting at 5am. :sweat: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I had a good look in my RTBB, 2 Books of the Astronomicon(WD compilations) and Index Astartes from back in the day, they all say similar things: That the Emprah led the LegionS until the Primarchs were found. We didn't get any specific love stated in any of them. I did find in one of them a definative statement that we were created FIRST though, I didn't note which book during my search so I'll recheck tonight if anyone cares about references. The White Scars entry/history is worded almost the same as ours in that when the Emprah found Jag he was given the 5th(?) Legion to command. The implication was that the Emprah conducted the early Crusades with every/most Legion/s until he could find commanders fit to lead them so he could then separate them. s EDIT: Another thought, if we hung out with the Emprah until half way through the Crusades it makes sense that we spent more time with the Big guy than Chapters that were found earlier and went off on their own way. So 50-100 years of more face time than some, esp Horus's lads. Would the Emprah keep the best toys with his crusade as long as possible? You know he would, he's a meglomanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We were the finest warriors in the Imperium, none had conquered more, and none had showed more zeal in battle and more dedication to their dudes. Absolutely love the typo in this! Point your Johnsons at enemy!!! - Who doesn't get this reference; Shame on you! I think, it's duties and not dudes. Anyway, someone is confusing Dark Angels with Imperial Fists (regardless of the blurb in the latest Codex: Blood Angels): The Legion's early actions were extremely successful; while the Great Crusade pushed forward, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces. Able to deploy quickly and reliably where and when required, the Imperial Fists struck the decisive blow in many battles. Their detailed planning made them especially efficient at sieges and their resolute endurance made them superb city fighters. They remained the Emperor's Praetorians throughout the campaign and when he returned to Terra to build a capital from which to rule an Empire of a million worlds, the Emperor took Rogal Dorn with him. Dorn was charged with the task of fortifying the Imperial Palace, an honour that did not go unnoticed by the other Primarchs. ~NightrawenII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We were the finest warriors in the Imperium, none had conquered more, and none had showed more zeal in battle and more dedication to their dudes. Absolutely love the typo in this! Point your Johnsons at enemy!!! - Who doesn't get this reference; Shame on you! I think, it's duties and not dudes. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Small amendment to my earlier post referencing an older GW publication. It was Inferno!, not 'Firebase'. I'm currently trying to dig up some of the original issues, as these had some lengthy 'short' stories in them, along with many pictures and other info. If anyone else can look and post their findings, it'd be great for our archives! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It,s nothing new but I recall the wording was something alone the line,s of "We where the emperors body/pratorian guard his angel,s of death. I know I read it in a GW publication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It,s nothing new but I recall the wording was something alone the line,s of "We where the emperors body/pratorian guard his angel,s of death. I know I read it in a GW publication. I know something like that popped up in reference to the Imperial Fists in their Index Astartes article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 It,s nothing new but I recall the wording was something alone the line,s of "We where the emperors body/pratorian guard his angel,s of death. I know I read it in a GW publication. I know something like that popped up in reference to the Imperial Fists in their Index Astartes article. I know but the Imp Fists being the praetorian guard started about the time the HH series came out as I recall before that the fists where only every mentioned as being recalled to fortify the emperors palace nothing about being his praetorian guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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