Against Space Marine

[Tankred]

Hi,

on Sunday i´ll have a 2,5k game against someone from our club. He´s fielding Spacemarines.

 

At the moment I think about fielding a GM, a Scriptor, 10er Purifier, 10er Paladins and two 10er Terminators, also a LR Redeemer.

Lot´s of Psicannons are mandatory.

 

Do you have any advices?

[Gentlemanloser]

/giggle and cleave his army apart with our army wide Power Weapons?

 

Really, unless he tricks himself out, he's not going to have much hope facing the GK.

[Avarris]

Best thing I do when I play against Space Marines is to advance as quick as possible and use the fact we have power weapons and the possibility of S5 as much as we can.

[Irbis]

/giggle and cleave his army apart with our army wide Power Weapons?

 

Really, unless he tricks himself out, he's not going to have much hope facing the GK.

 

... ;)

 

Say hello to 20 Hammernators. Or 40 pinning/rending scouts with 36" range + their 50 pts Vindicare (Tellion). Or 12 tanks on table (85 pts Predators included). Or 3 guns throwing 12 problem-making templates per turn. Or 3 Vindicators. Or 30 combi-meltagun Sternguard. Or... ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

And?

 

20 Hammernators are a massive investment, and we just kite them and torrent them. Scouts? Really? BS3 versus Fearless Purifiers. Not worried.

 

Now a tricked out biker list that out ranges me. Or a tricked out MSU list. Yeah, they can be scary. As I said, the SM player has to really trick themselves out.

 

A 'normal' SM all comers list. Not worried about. We outshoot them, and we *destroy* them in CC.

[Something Wycked]

Irbis, throwing out random units that might destroy GK's doesn't actually help your case; I can throw out even more GK units that will destroy SM's. ;)

 

The fact is that GK's have every advantage over SM's except numbers of models on the table.

 

Like GL says, unless the SM player is bringing a "tricked out" list or, like I say, is a flat out better tactician than Tankred, then Tankred has nothing to worry about :P

 

Tankred, to answer your question: no real advice other than to play smart. Don't walk into a wall of AP2 firepower. Use cover and flexibile deployment (ie, everything but the Purifiers and Land Raider can Deep Strike) to your advantage. Focus fire where possible to reduce your opponent's numerical advantage, with an eye to taking out ranged weapons and melee units that are a real threat to you. :P

[Gentlemanloser]

And get in Melee asap and beat faces. :P

 

'Nilla SM weep at our Power Fist costs! So go hit 'em with a few Daemonhammers! :P

[Irbis]

20 Hammernators are a massive investment

 

20 Hammernators is 800 points, less than 1/3 of proposed 2500 pts game. Since it's really easy to run out of slots in Codex:SM, then enemy will have at least 10 Terminators, unless going for 30 Sternguard Kantor/Hestan list.

 

and we just kite them and torrent them.

 

With what? 24" guns? Except, they're 18", because you have to run backwards at full speed. All while 9-12 tanks with 48" ranges on the other side of board perforates you unmolested as giant fire magnet does its job and absorbs absurd amount of psycannon fire on their 2+ saves.

 

Oh, and when you realize they might have fleet and be in your face before you kill them all...

 

Scouts? Really? BS3 versus Fearless Purifiers. Not worried.

 

Let's compare costs and how many of them will actually reach the scouts given similarly costed unit, ok? B)

 

Also, watch the awesome CC ability of Purifiers wasted on bubblewrap unit of 5 scouts leaving them open to return fire on enemy turn.

 

Now a tricked out biker list that out ranges me. Or a tricked out MSU list. Yeah, they can be scary. As I said, the SM player has to really trick themselves out.

 

Tricked? Actually, making really strong Marine list is easy. Codex: SM is very forgiving, unless you take one of the 2-3 trap units, the list will be serviceable. Heck, take Kantor, Shrike, Khan or Hestan and good list starts to write itself.

 

A 'normal' SM all comers list. Not worried about. We outshoot them, and we *destroy* them in CC.

 

Um... You're aware that number of attacks Sternguard has gives them exact same chance to kill a GK as member of Strike Squad does to them in return? 3 CC attacks vs 1 PW attack? :wallbash:

 

You can claim SS are better when they charge, but usual situation where Sternguard is close enough to be charged and not charged first is when they just walked out of Drop Pod and removed 400+ pts of stuff from table.

 

Irbis, throwing out random units that might destroy GK's doesn't actually help your case; I can throw out even more GK units that will destroy SM's. ;)

 

Oh, be my guest and demonstrate what GK unit can, point for point, match Hammernators :P

 

Aternatively, what GK HQ stands any chance vs Lysander. SM can be just that much more efficient :sick:

 

The fact is that GK's have every advantage over SM's except numbers of models on the table.

 

That's the problem. GK have better shooting and CC skills... but they pay for it. Competent SM commander can just concentrate him CC in Hammernators, his shooting in other units... the end result being, he ends up not overpaying for anything. Sure, that makes army less forgiving, but amount of extra bodies on table does compensate for it.

 

Like GL says, unless the SM player is bringing a "tricked out" list or, like I say, is a flat out better tactician than Tankred, then Tankred has nothing to worry about :no:

 

Eh, it's just easy to make crappy GK list as it is to make crappy SM one. Sorry, just the whole attitude "We have PWs LOL Autowin" kind of irritated me, especially seeing it might give out new Brother false sense of security and make him play less carefully against someone who, in all likelihood, knows his army much better and played with it longer.

 

Tankred, to answer your question: no real advice other than to play smart. Don't walk into a wall of AP2 firepower. Use cover and flexibile deployment (ie, everything but the Purifiers and Land Raider can Deep Strike) to your advantage. Focus fire where possible to reduce your opponent's numerical advantage, with an eye to taking out ranged weapons and melee units that are a real threat to you. :)

 

Uh... I'll just say, when enemy obviously has all-shooting army Deep Strike can be... less than optimal idea, especially within 12" of any veteran unit... Same with melee units that are a threat - never ever assault them first, run if you can, attack only if they will charge you on their turn. No GK unit can ever dream (barring massive luck) of going against Hammernators and winning, they eat even similar number of Paladins for breakfast (especially if you fallen for 'all halberds' trap).

[Gentlemanloser]

800 points on a unit you have *no transport* for, that has *no ranged* attack. Scary? No.

 

Oh you're gonna stick them all in DPs or DS them.

 

Warp Quake.

 

Oh, and when you realize they might have fleet and be in your face before you kill them all...

 

Shrike? Sorry, Servo Skulls. Please don't Infiltrate, please don't pass go.

 

Also, watch the awesome CC ability of Purifiers wasted on bubblewrap unit of 5 scouts leaving them open to return fire on enemy turn.

 

Scouts? Meet PT DreadKnights with Heavy Incinerators. Bye bye.

 

the list will be serviceable.

 

Servicable, yes. Problematic for the GK? No, not on your life. You have to squeeze every once of competitive utilty out of the SM 'dex to give the GK a run for thier money.

 

You're aware that number of attacks Sternguard has gives them exact same chance to kill a GK as member of Strike Squad does to them in return? 3 CC attacks vs 1 PW attack?

 

Right, so biased much? You give SG the charge, but deny it to Strikes... LoL. Also, it's the Prui's with i6, or GKT/Pallies that will be eating the marines in CC. Stirkes are there for 2 reasons.

 

Psycannons and;

 

when they just walked out of Drop Pod and removed 400+ pts of stuff from table.

 

Warp Quake.

 

Please use DP.

 

Please.

 

Aternatively, what GK HQ stands any chance vs Lysander.

 

Draigo. Edit: Or any of them, after the Vindicare has stripped Lysander of his 3++. OR a 100 point BC sacrifices himself to remove Lysander form the Game. Or Crowe does the same if his rerollable 4++ doesn't do the trick.

 

That's the problem.

 

Not really. I can match marine for marine to any SM list fielded. Just about. If I wanted to. If you want to go 'horde' GK, the numerical superiority of SMs dissapears.

 

All while 9-12 tanks with 48" ranges on the other side of board perforates you unmolested as giant fire magnet does its job and absorbs absurd amount of psycannon fire on their 2+ saves.

 

The Ven/Normal Psyflemen are eating those tanks. As the PTing DKs smash them open. The TH/SS Temries die to torrenting, doing notihng, other than dying. lol.

[Inquisitor Fox]

My several general bits of advice that I always give is twofold. First, chop the shooty ones and shoot the choppy ones. Since a Grey Kight army can do both, simply use what is most effective against your current target and "go with the flow". Second, keep your mind on the mission objectives. Too often people engage in a walk across the table matchup and concentrate only on eliminating all the enemy units. Often it's easier to win based on objectives and maneuvering, and too easy to get yourself into a situation where you'll lose because you weren't paying attention.

[Gentlemanloser]

Missed this;

 

"We have PWs LOL Autowin" kind of irritated me

 

I'm sorry it irritated you, but it's the truth.

 

I've played SM as my main oponents since the new Dex was released. It's an uphill battle for them. We have every advantage. For just the 4 extra points per man our Marines Cost, SM players would *kill* for a SB and PW, only that doesn't even include Hammerhand or War Quake.

[Something Wycked]

Oh, be my guest and demonstrate what GK unit can, point for point, match Hammernators

 

Aternatively, what GK HQ stands any chance vs Lysander. SM can be just that much more efficient

Challenge accepted :(

 

Death Cult Assassins: Each DCA gets 4 attacks on the charge, at Init 6, Strength 4, power weapons. I also think they're Weapon Skill 5, so will hit on 3's, but I can't remember that for certain so I'll leave it out. Let's assume best case scenario for you, and your Hammernators + Lysander charge a unit of DCA's, so they don't get the charge bonus. The DCA's strike first with 36 attacks (3x12), wounding 9 times. Make 9 invulnerable saves. On average, that's 3 dead Hammernators, or 2 dead Hammernators and 1 wound on Lysander. And, yes, the Hammernators proceed to hurt the DCAs pretty badly.

 

That unit of 12 DCA's cost 180 points. I can bring 43 DCA's with points left over for the cost of your 10 Hammernators and Lysander. ;) If I were to charge 43 DCA's into the Hammernators and Lysander, the Hammernators have to make 43 Invulnerable saves before they get to swing. (43x4 attacks / 2 hits / 2 wounds = 43 saves to be made.)

 

Competent SM commander

You're now making an assumption that the SM commander is more competent than the GK commander. ;) I can make the reverse argument in favor of the GK commander, but that doesn't get us anywhere in our discussion :P

 

Eh, it's just easy to make crappy GK list as it is to make crappy SM one. Sorry, just the whole attitude "We have PWs LOL Autowin" kind of irritated me, especially seeing it might give out new Brother false sense of security and make him play less carefully against someone who, in all likelihood, knows his army much better and played with it longer.

Successful list building is certainly a skill, and people can certainly fail at it. Advantage: GK, with underpriced units (even as expensive as they are), all of which are effective. Tankred isn't new, so I'm sure he'll do fine ;)

 

Uh... I'll just say, when enemy obviously has all-shooting army Deep Strike can be... less than optimal idea, especially within 12" of any veteran unit... Same with melee units that are a threat - never ever assault them first, run if you can, attack only if they will charge you on their turn.

You'll note I didn't say he should Deep Strike everything- I reminded that its a tool in his arsenal that he can use, in the proper situation. And we never Deep Strike within 12"- we Deep Strike within 24", in our optimal shooting range and out of theirs. 6-8 Strength 5 Stormbolters and 2-4 Psycannons make a mess out of even MEQ units, particularly when we get the first shot after we come in from Deep Strike ;)

 

No GK unit can ever dream (barring massive luck) of going against Hammernators and winning, they eat even similar number of Paladins for breakfast (especially if you fallen for 'all halberds' trap).

:down: DCA's. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Challenge accepted

 

Also, how about (the DCA are still better, this is just for the lulz, and it's off the top of my head, so no maths yet), 10 Falchion wielding Puri's with an attached Libby (with Quicksilver).

 

Cost: 290 + 155 = 445

 

For 40, I10, S6 Power Weapon attacks. :down:

 

That's 20 hits, 16.66 wounds, 5.5 TH/SS termies dead. The remaining 4.5 (let's say 5) TH/SS Termies have 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4.1 (let's say 4) Puri's dead.

 

Next round it's 18 attacks, 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 TH/SS Temries dead. Leaving 2.5 left. In turn they kill 2 Puris (4 versus 2.5 now)

 

12 attacks, 6 hits, 1.66~ more dead. The 0.84 of a TH/SS Termy left doesn't have enough to kill the remaining 4 Puris.

 

And this ignores the libby as well.

 

 

Or, hell, just send a BC with Psycho 'nades into the hammernators, and hope to roll well. :(

 

Edit: I10 was for the lulz.

 

It would be even better to drop the Libby for a Rad grenade carrying Techy.

 

So 40, I4, S5 (Techy HH) attacks, facing T3, and the Puri's now get to cast CF.

 

:P

 

Total: 390.

[spartan249]

I have both my Iron Hands and Ghost Knights at full strength now (4.6k of the hands & 2k of the Ghost Knights) and I have run numerous scenarios pitting my IHs against my GKs just for the lulz of seeing how they play out. I'll say this right now: Skill was equal (I played both sides of the games), but the win/loss ratio of my IHs was abysmally bad (2w/5d/9l) , literally no matter what I brought. I ran my usual dreadraiders build, I ran some khantastic assault lists, and a few other blast template filled lists, and every time I switched over to the IH turn, it really sucked trying to pull out wins because my IHs are completely outmatched in mid-range and CQB (DCA make a mess of everything... you can do the math on that if you want).

 

What I got out of those self-played scenarios is that C:SM only has one advantage over C:GKs - Long Range Firepower. In order for the C:SM player to even have a chance against any decently played C:GK army, they need to bring serious long-range heat and focus fire on the #1 threats in the GK formation (if it's even on the board... that's debatable) and have an ace in the hole to employ when they inevitably do get close. It requires judicious use of maneuver warfare to get the GKs into compromising positions, as GKs as a whole don't boast much beyond 24".

 

In short, unless our intrepid C:GK player forgets his fundamentals and goes blindly into killzones or is outmaneuvered by the C:SM player... there really isn't a very big chance of the C:SM player gaining the upper hand.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Unfortunately true. Grey Knights have the advantage against Space Marines. They have the advantage against every army except (perhaps) mech Guard. Still, at least if he wins he can feel that he beat the stronger army, and if you win... well there's nothing to really brag about.

 

It's not even worth giving tactical advice to Grey Knight players, the army basically does all the work for you.

[Guest Bucelufe]

don't any of you think this is all rather sad?

In a points based game system a 50 point unit should be equal yet this is clearly not the case. new codices always have to have an aura of one-upmanship about them to encourage us players to ditch our current army and go buy the shiny new models. If the people at GW actually designed balanced force lists and actually play tested them so that was the case then a lot of this BS would all go away and we could all have fun, yet competitive games.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think it's one upmanship. With the exception of Nid's, all the new Codexes seem relatively balanced among thierselves. It's the old Codexes that can't really compete (although I don't like facing Eldar still...).

 

But a 50 point unit in one codex can't be the same as a 50 point unit in another, as this would ignore inherant army design. Like GK lacking easy access to Melta Weapons, to ofset other abilities.

 

As for the SM dex, it's powerful, and can be competitive. But it's not as forgiving to build a list with as the GK (or other) 'dex is. There are builds in the SM 'dex that are downright scary (and as for GKs having an advantage over everyone else, I'd hate to face a 52 dark light spam Deldar list, or a night shield one, that would rip my GK list apart) for GK to face. But you have to tailor your list to do so. Much like a Nightshield Deldar list.

 

You have to maximise utility. By things like Biker troops, Vulkan and loading up on Flamers/MM, Free ML combat squads and MSU. That sort of stuff. But SM rely on thier power armour. They are designed with its protection in mind. If they come up agianst a list that pratically removes this, they are at a massive disadvantage. Like a Chaos Dameon list, or now the GK.

 

Power Weapons on just about every unit (and a mass of Rending shots) make them very fragile, and give them a massively hard situation to overcome. SM could hide in Rhinos, but it's not like we don't have some of the best shooting to take out Rhino hulls in the entire game...

[Something Wycked]

new codices always have to have an aura of one-upmanship about them to encourage us players to ditch our current army and go buy the shiny new models.

Citadel is a modeling company first and foremost.

 

Games Workshop creates rules for a game with the intent to sell more models. Its only natural that a phenomenon such as that you described would exist :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Except when they make new units, don't release minis for them, and by the time they do, either everyone has already made thier own, got them from elsewhere, or no longer care...

 

See Tervigons and TWC.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

A 50 point unit in one army need not be directly equivalent to a 50 point unit in another army, but it should at least be that a 2000 point army is equivalent to another 2000 point army. It would be interesting to see spartan249 do a series of battles between his Iron Hands and Ghost Knights with a constant 2000 points of Iron Hands, and a decreasing points cost of Grey Knights. I'm inclined to believe he won't start seeing a balanced fight until the Grey Knights drop below 1750 points, or possibly 1500.

 

Bikes as troops requires a biker Captain, that's one HQ, and taking Vulkan requires another HQ slot, where's the Librarian to reduce the effectiveness of Grey Knight psychic powers? Moreover the effective range of bikes is 24 inches, or Grey Knight range, and Grey Knights are cheaper and have 2 shots at 24 inches, not 1. Bikes are good, but their strength is against other units with rapid fire weapons. Twin-linked meltas and flamers don't help that much (except maybe for shooting Paladin) and a Land Raider filled with assault terminators is an expensive psycannon magnet. You don't get free missile launcher combat squads, you have to pay 80 points on top of the cost of the initial tactical unit to get that missile launcher, which is why no one takes more than two tactical squads. They're too expensive and contribute almost nothing to the battlefield. Compared to Grey Knights, whose troops are very efficient and effective, Space Marine troops are pretty poor. Killing in a Space Marine list comes from Fast Attack (Speeders) Heavy Support (Predators) and Elite (Dreadnoughts with up to one squad of Thunder Hammer terminators).

 

I can't see why Grey Knights would have huge problems with dark lance spam Dark Eldar. A large amount of Grey Knight units can deep strike, so just reserve everything and deep strike within shooting range of the Eldar. Combat squad so the strength 5 storm bolters and strength 7 psycannon can target different units, and blaze away. That's a couple of pretty well shot up Raiders for each unit, with a possibility of killing half the Eldar inside as the ship goes down. I'm sure that for a while you'll be trading the deep striking squads for the Raiders, but he has to run out of them eventually.

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, play some GK versus Deldar matches to see why Dark Lances and Night Shields pwn us.

 

As for 'nilla SM, it's the mobilty (turbo boosting Cover Saves) of bikes that does us in, and the reroll for flamers/Melta.

 

/shrug

 

YMMV. I've just played *a lot* of SM lists.

[Murcielago]

Not gonna lie...It's almost sad that you guys are telling him to not worry because we counter everything. It shows how overpowered we really are...

[Marid]

I'm not sure this is really helping. Maybe a more useful approach is a critique of the OP's full army list as an all comers' list?

[Gentlemanloser]

Is this game part of a tournament? Does Tankred *really* want to win, or just have a fun game? Is this all the minis he has to use (or wants to use), or are there more options open to fill out a 2.5K list? Is his opponent going to bring a specialy made anti GK list?

 

Edit: Some list advice. :)

 

Bring a Vindicare. They're far too good not to use, if you can spare the points.

 

Enemy LR? Gone. Nasty Enemy IC? Remove that Invulnerable save, then just pwn them.

 

Not gonna lie...It's almost sad that you guys are telling him to not worry because we counter everything. It shows how overpowered we really are...

 

That's the abslute wrong way to look at it. We're not OP. If you've not faced a 52 darklight weapon list (or around those numbers) at 2K points, you really should. ;) It's eye opening!

 

We've got our counters. It's just the 'nilla marines are showing thier age, and it's not as easy for them to push us.

 

They can, it's just something they need to tailor for.

 

Edit2;

 

Missed this;

 

You don't get free missile launcher combat squads, you have to pay 80 points on top of the cost of the initial tactical unit to get that missile launcher, which is why no one takes more than two tactical squads.

 

Take a 10 man Tac Squad. Combat Squad 5 with a MG in thier Rhino. Leave 5 with a ML in terrain. Do this 6 times?

 

Bikes as troops requires a biker Captain, that's one HQ, and taking Vulkan requires another HQ slot, where's the Librarian to reduce the effectiveness of Grey Knight psychic powers?

 

While you could use both a biker captain and Vulkan in the same list (I suppose to give your attack bikes a reroll), I wouldn't. One or the other, really.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

You don't get free missile launcher combat squads, you have to pay 80 points on top of the cost of the initial tactical unit to get that missile launcher, which is why no one takes more than two tactical squads.

 

Take a 10 man Tac Squad. Combat Squad 5 with a MG in thier Rhino. Leave 5 with a ML in terrain. Do this 6 times?

 

Bikes as troops requires a biker Captain, that's one HQ, and taking Vulkan requires another HQ slot, where's the Librarian to reduce the effectiveness of Grey Knight psychic powers?

 

While you could use both a biker captain and Vulkan in the same list (I suppose to give your attack bikes a reroll), I wouldn't. One or the other, really.

 

I don't know what game you're playing. Spend 210 points to get a missile launcher and a meltagun? Spend 1260 points to get 6 of them? Tactical squads are not Strike Squads. Strike Squads are only poor compared to the optional Grey Knights troops like Purifiers. Tactical squads are poor, period. For 250 points Strike Squads give you two psycannon and 8 strength 5 storm bolters and a hammer on top of your standard force weapons. If you add the Rhino that's 290 points, so for 1260 you're getting 4 squads, with 100 points to go the the rest of your army. Within the 24 inch range that Grey Knights operate in those four squads will destroy utterly the 6 Tactical squads. Outside 24 inches the Marines have a whopping 6 missile launchers... they might destroy one Rhino before they get blown away.

 

No Marine player fields more than the bare minimum of troops because there's no killing power there. Bikes are the exception of course, but that comes with a hefty investment in a biker Captain, and suppressing psychic powers still requires a librarian.

 

Vulkan based armies max out on flamer, melta and hammer weapons. A typical list might look something like.

 

Vulkan

Librarian, null zone, gate

10 Assault Terminators, Redeemer, multi-melta, extra armour

Redeemer, multi-melta, extra armour

10 Tactical marines, multi-melta, flamer, combi-melta, Rhino

10 Tactical marines, multi-melta, flamer, combi-melta, Rhino

2 Land Speeders, multi-melta, heavy flamer

2 Land Speeders, multi-melta, heavy flamer

Land Speeder, multi-melta, heavy flamer

Total 2000 points.

 

Of course the obvious weakness is that it's a very short ranged army. Getting close enough to be effective will see that it's shredded by Grey Knight psycannon fire. Unlike Grey Knights the marine player is forced to tie up 430 points of his army in units that are almost completely ineffective. Sure, if it got into combat (with the terminators) it might be able to do some damage, but I'm pretty sure that it would never get there. Dual Land Raider lists also lose to everything else, especially dark lance spam.