runes of warding

[angry man]

i watched part of a game tonight where one participant had an eldar army. he had your standard farseer with all the trimmings. he also had another, with the same trimmings.

 

included in each farseers wargear were runes of warding

 

codex:eldar states something along the lines of "enemy psychic tests are taken on 3D6..."

 

in the recent(ish) series of FAQs, this has been changed to read something along the lines of "enemy psychic tests are taken with an additional D6"

 

the eldar player, and others who have eldar armies were claiming that with 2 sets of runes of warding on the table, enemy psychic tests must be taken on 4D6, as the effects stack...

 

honestly i dont feel that this is correct, but couldnt find any RAW to completely disprove it...

 

thoughts?

 

AM

[DarkGuard]

Looks like your right, Rune of Warding = +1D6 to psychic tests, to two would be 4D6 for psychic tests, ridiculous ruling by GW, who actually makes these rulings? A clown?

[Something Wycked]

Page 26 – Runes of Warding

Change the last sentence to “All enemy Psykers must

roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering

Perils of the Warp on any roll of 12 or above.

It isn't even a FAQ, its an errata.

[Hellios]

Looks like your right, Rune of Warding = +1D6 to psychic tests, to two would be 4D6 for psychic tests, ridiculous ruling by GW, who actually makes these rulings? A clown?

 

I'm not convinced it stacks... As an Eldar player it was damn good to start with (not broken but awesome...) this is just silly.

[angry man]

i really dont think that it stacks. if that was how its supposed to play, then it would say that they roll each an extra D6 for each runes (or something to that effect)

 

but GW will write lovely unclear rules/erattas for us...

 

AM

[Seahawk]

Oh it stacks alright. Here are both the erratas:

 

Page 26 – Runes of Warding

Change the last sentence to “All enemy Psykers must

roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering

Perils of the Warp on any roll of 12 or above.”

 

Page 26 – Runes of Witnessing

Change the last two sentences to “A Farseer with runes

of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking

Psychic tests and discards the highest result.

 

So if you're under the effects of both, then you take all psychic tests on 4D6, discard the highest, and if the final result on the remaining 3D6 is over 12 they suffer a Perils.

[angry man]

Oh it stacks alright. Here are both the erratas:

 

Page 26 – Runes of Warding

Change the last sentence to “All enemy Psykers must

roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering

Perils of the Warp on any roll of 12 or above.”

but theres nothing to suggest that if you opponent has 2 sets of runes of warding you take tests with an extra 2D6

 

AM

[DarkGuard]

Yes there is, you have one set of Runes of Warding, so +1D6 to psychic tests. You have another set of Runes of Warding, which is also +1D6 to psychic tests. So that's +2D6 to psychic tests, they stack, there's nothing saying they don't, and the way it's worded suggests they do, like I said, another ridiculous GW FAQ.

[Morollan]

Throw in Shadow in the Warp for extra giggles.

[Hellios]

Yes there is, you have one set of Runes of Warding, so +1D6 to psychic tests. You have another set of Runes of Warding, which is also +1D6 to psychic tests. So that's +2D6 to psychic tests, they stack, there's nothing saying they don't, and the way it's worded suggests they do, like I said, another ridiculous GW FAQ.

 

Except GW hasn't stated if it stacks or not and other rules which give bonuses of some sort sometimes stack and sometimes don't... Sometimes it is specifically stated and sometimes it isn't and when they FAQ ones that are not specifically stated they have gone both ways. Can anyone tell me why this was changed was there an issue that needed to be fixed?

 

I think the old wording was perfectly clear with the only real issue being when you used it against say another farseer with ruins of witnessing. The codex has also been out a very long time so it isn't like this should be a missed in editing thing...

 

Can anyone tell me if states if things stack or not in the main rulebook? By default I mean.

[dswanick]

I'm going to wager that it doesn't stack. Here's another situation where GW wrote a rule based on being within range of a wargear item :

"Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified. - Codex: Space Wolves, Pg.36

No prohibition on getting to roll for each weapon in range, so if two were in range it is a valid interpretation that you would roll two dice and nullify the power on a success from either. But GW changed it to clarify that it is only one roll no matter how many weapons are in range. I suspect that this is a similar circumstance where GW wrote the rule and didn't think that there could ever be more than one on the table. Thus they just didn't think it through for multiple instances stacking.

[Morollan]

I'm going to wager that it doesn't stack. Here's another situation where GW wrote a rule based on being within range of a wargear item :

"Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified. - Codex: Space Wolves, Pg.36

No prohibition on getting to roll for each weapon in range, so if two were in range it is a valid interpretation that you would roll two dice and nullify the power on a success from either. But GW changed it to clarify that it is only one roll no matter how many weapons are in range. I suspect that this is a similar circumstance where GW wrote the rule and didn't think that there could ever be more than one on the table. Thus they just didn't think it through for multiple instances stacking.

 

On the other hand, the Necron Codex contains an item of wargear (the Ether Crystal) where the rules specifically address multiples of the item (they don't stack as such but do have a slightly increased effect).

[Gentlemanloser]

Where as Psychic Powers have been FAQed to stack.

[Leonaides]

erm- maybe this is just me but seahawk- those 2 would seem to stack because they are 2 different things, and would only stack in an eldar vs eldar battle. Dont quite see why that would be relevant to the op though...

[Morollan]

erm- maybe this is just me but seahawk- those 2 would seem to stack because they are 2 different things, and would only stack in an eldar vs eldar battle. Dont quite see why that would be relevant to the op though...

 

Indeed. I think we're concerned with whether 2 farseers each packing Runes of Warding would require all enemy psychic tests to be taken on 4d6 with 12+ resulting in perils.

 

From a RAW perspective I think they would indeed stack. Grey Knights are probably praying that they don't!

[Spacefrisian]

Rules wise it stacks, just like shadows in the warp and Runes of witnessing now does.

 

Ask the local judge what they think of it and if they house rule it for both cases.

 

Imagine an apocalypse battle where 10 farseers have that piece of wargear and are within 72" (unlimited becomes 72" in apocalypse for some reason), that will be alot of Greyknight psychic stuf not being used.

[Seahawk]

Ah fail, I thought we were talking about Runes of Witnessing too!

 

In that case, I'd play that they don't stack, but that's just me. There's no hard rules justification either for stacking or against stacking. GW's answer: roll off! :teehee:

[Something Wycked]

It certainly is arguable. The errata says to roll "an extra dice." If there are two of them on the board, that could translate to two extra dice, or they could each be inflicting only the single extra dice.

[Morticon]

Yes there is, you have one set of Runes of Warding, so +1D6 to psychic tests. You have another set of Runes of Warding, which is also +1D6 to psychic tests. So that's +2D6 to psychic tests, they stack, there's nothing saying they don't, and the way it's worded suggests they do, like I said, another ridiculous GW FAQ.

 

I call nonsense by way of the verbiage.

 

A player rolling "an" (singular) extra dice has fulfilled the condition of the rules as set out by runes of warding.

There is only one condition - to "roll an extra dice" - whether you have one or 20 runes of warding, by rolling one more than normal you have fulfilled the condition.

[Leonaides]

Do 2 castings of the GK power that gives +1S stack? (is that Hammerhand or Might of Titan - I cant remember). I know that both separate powers appear to stack, but I dont recall if 2 of the same one stack...

[angry man]

Do 2 castings of the GK power that gives +1S stack? (is that Hammerhand or Might of Titan - I cant remember). I know that both separate powers appear to stack, but I dont recall if 2 of the same one stack...

yes, you can stack hammerhands - but this is explicitly stated in the GK codex.

 

not sure on relevance, but calgar doesnt get to double his S twice in cc because he has 2 powerfists...

 

AM

[Seahawk]

Yes:

 

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast

multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)

A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

 

But psychic powers are not the same as wargear or special rules.

 

Here are all of the stackable/unstackable things I can find in the FAQs:

 

Q. If an army has two Autarchs, does it get +2 to its

Reserve rolls? (p29)

A. The player may choose each turn whether to add +1,

+2 or no bonus to his reserve rolls.

(Choose to stack, or not)

 

Q: Do chainsabres and powerblades count as a pair of

close combat weapons that give an additional +1

Attack? (p33 and36)

A: No. They count as a single weapon that gives +1

Attack.

(Despite being "twin power weapons"...no stacking)

 

Q: Do Nemesis falchions count as 2 close combat

weapons and thus give +2 Attacks in close combat (+1

for their special rule and +1 for wielding 2 close

combat weapons)? (p54)

A: No, they just give +1 Attack.

(Despite being two close combat weapons that provide an extra attack, no stacking)

 

Q. If you take two Astropaths or two Officers of the

Fleet, do their +1/-1 to reserve rolls stack? (p31)

A. No.

(Despite not having any wording that says they don't, no stacking)

 

Q: If I have more than one Hive Tyrant with the Hive

Commander ability, do their bonuses to reserve rolls

stack? Also, do I get to outflank with one Troops unit, or

one Troops unit per Hive Tyrant with this upgrade? (p34)

A: No, the reserve roll bonuses do not stack.

(Despite not saying they can't, no stacking)

 

Q: Is the reserve roll bonus for having a Hive Tyrant with

the Hive Commander ability cumulative with the reserve

roll bonuses granted by a Lictor’s Pheromone Trail and/or

the Swarmlord’s Alien Cunning rules? (p34, 41)

A: Yes.

(Yes, they can stack for some reason)

 

 

So, there's no consistency for GW, which means there's no precedent for this answer, which means roll off each game :P.

[DarkGuard]

If they weren't supposed to stack, why change the wording from "taking a psychic test on 3D6" to "+D6 to your psychic test". Most of the time, except against Eldar I believe, this will result in 3D6, and for Eldar that's FAQ. This is Errata and it's been changed fundamentally. When it said to take the test of 3D6 you knew it didn't stack, there was no possibility. However, having now had that changed to +D6 you have to assume that there's something different about it, and stacking seems like the most obvious one. Otherwise why change it?

 

I think judging by the change and the way it's written it's quite obvious that it stacks, and those that are arguing against it just simply don't want it to stack as it'll put the heat on their own armies.

[Hellios]

If they weren't supposed to stack, why change the wording from "taking a psychic test on 3D6" to "+D6 to your psychic test". Most of the time, except against Eldar I believe, this will result in 3D6, and for Eldar that's FAQ. This is Errata and it's been changed fundamentally. When it said to take the test of 3D6 you knew it didn't stack, there was no possibility. However, having now had that changed to +D6 you have to assume that there's something different about it, and stacking seems like the most obvious one. Otherwise why change it?

 

I think judging by the change and the way it's written it's quite obvious that it stacks, and those that are arguing against it just simply don't want it to stack as it'll put the heat on their own armies.

 

My main army is is over 20k pts of Eldar... Specifically I play Ulthwé... I have more Farseers than I have fingers. I don't see this ruling working against me, I however feel that this is a bad ruling... It wasn't an area of the codex that needs a buff... I think some random guy somewhere writes the FAQs and I'm not convinced he knows what he is doing half the time.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Isn't the game a permissive ruleset? Which means that for something to apply, the rules have to say that it applies.

 

So for them to stack, the rules have to stay that they stack.