runes of warding

[Grey Mage]

The reason for the errata is because the way it was previously worded meant that multiple effects that added dice wouldnt stack RAW. What happened when an Eldar played an Eldar? Runes of Witnesseing and Runes of warding both should add a dice, and then subtract one. In other cases, like multiplayer games involving tyranids and eldar vs a psychic both rules sets wouldnt stack, etc etc- because it was quite specificly 3d6. This doesnt imply in and of itself if it stacks or not.

 

The new wording updates it to the more modern verbiage used in C:Tyranids, and its a good change. I for one as an eldar player wont add more than a single d6 to an enemy psyker- but I could see it being interpretted either way to be honest.

[dswanick]

Isn't the game a permissive ruleset? Which means that for something to apply, the rules have to say that it applies.

 

So for them to stack, the rules have to stay that they stack.

Unfortunately, no. Warhammer 40,000 is a "Gentleman's Agreement" ruleset. The first statement that GW makes about its ruleset in the rulebook is that they are neither "important" or absolute. Welcome to the frustrating world of people who want to play 40k with other than the same three or four friends we've known our whole lives.

[Spacefrisian]

Yes there is, you have one set of Runes of Warding, so +1D6 to psychic tests. You have another set of Runes of Warding, which is also +1D6 to psychic tests. So that's +2D6 to psychic tests, they stack, there's nothing saying they don't, and the way it's worded suggests they do, like I said, another ridiculous GW FAQ.

 

I call nonsense by way of the verbiage.

 

A player rolling "an" (singular) extra dice has fulfilled the condition of the rules as set out by runes of warding.

There is only one condition - to "roll an extra dice" - whether you have one or 20 runes of warding, by rolling one more than normal you have fulfilled the condition.

 

 

Check Eldar faq before calling nonsense, gw has made it (once again) exploitable.

[DarkGuard]

If they weren't supposed to stack, why change the wording from "taking a psychic test on 3D6" to "+D6 to your psychic test". Most of the time, except against Eldar I believe, this will result in 3D6, and for Eldar that's FAQ. This is Errata and it's been changed fundamentally. When it said to take the test of 3D6 you knew it didn't stack, there was no possibility. However, having now had that changed to +D6 you have to assume that there's something different about it, and stacking seems like the most obvious one. Otherwise why change it?

 

I think judging by the change and the way it's written it's quite obvious that it stacks, and those that are arguing against it just simply don't want it to stack as it'll put the heat on their own armies.

 

My main army is is over 20k pts of Eldar... Specifically I play Ulthwé... I have more Farseers than I have fingers. I don't see this ruling working against me, I however feel that this is a bad ruling... It wasn't an area of the codex that needs a buff... I think some random guy somewhere writes the FAQs and I'm not convinced he knows what he is doing half the time.

 

I was talking about Space Marine Libby's etc, man I'm worried about my own army here, but I'd still say it stacks :P.

 

EDIT: Eldar seem to have it good with this Hellios, though I suppose it's about time they properly dominated psychic powers, I suppose making it near impossible for other armies to use theirs will work :mellow:.

[DarkGuard]

I also found this on the Nids FAQ, it's very similar to the Eldar Rune of Warding so thought I'd add it onto this thread as it'll be subject to the same sort of debates etc, but if the mods feel it warrants it's own thread I'll make a new one.

 

Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

 

Notice the similarities, where once Shadow in the Warp said psykers within 12" had to roll 3D6 for their psychic test, meaning multiples don't stack, this now also says to add an extra dice, leaving that possibility open. As I've said, given the shift from 3D6 to +D6 I feel that is the most logical interpretation, and this in the Nid FAQ shows a consistency to GW in terms of similar psychic defenses.

[Spacefrisian]

You might want to check previous posts in this thread.

[DarkGuard]

Yeah I'd read through it, seen something, forgotten it, posted that, then read through it again, then doh! Hey I'm human, we're all fallible :yes:

[Desolate]

Hey guys,

I have just come across this errata in the FAQ and thought I'd weigh in. We have been discussing this same issue on other forums...

 

Here is my attempt at analogy... here goes:

This is based off the current Errata of the rule:

 

All enemy Psykers must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests...

 

Now lets change the line to "must give an extra dollar"

Both replaced with a verb and a noun.

So:

Farseer #1 gives me an extra dollar

Farseer #2 gives me an extra dollar

I now have 2 dollars extra

 

The rule would need to say "must give an extra dollar more than the normal amount" in order for me to not have 2 dollars.

 

Same with the real rule. It would have to read "must roll an extra dice more than the normal amount..." to make the rule not stack.

 

The rule is exclusive to something else being effected. In the analogy it was "me" in the game it would by all enemy psykers.

[Chengar Qordath]

Unfortunately, no. Warhammer 40,000 is a "Gentleman's Agreement" ruleset. The first statement that GW makes about its ruleset in the rulebook is that they are neither "important" or absolute. Welcome to the frustrating world of people who want to play 40k with other than the same three or four friends we've known our whole lives.

Which is the main reason that, regardless of RAW, it shouldn't stack. Runes of Warding are already one of the best psychic defenses in the game at 3d6; bumping it up to 4d6 is a total game-breaker.

 

For those curious about the math, on 4d6 with Perils on a 12+, the Psyker suffers from Perils more than 76% of the time. A Psyker with Leadership 10 will successfully manifest powers less than 16% of the time.

[Desolate]

They needed a balance shift, that is why. 3d6 was OKAY. 4d6 puts them at the top of the psychic defense food chain where they belong. Your math looks correct and I like those numbers ;)

 

Also, you would have to take 2 farseers and both with runes of warding to make it happen. I, for one, would be happy with making my opponent roll 3d6 and spend the points elsewhere. A lot of people will chose NOT to run 2 farseers.

[Jacinda]

Hey guys,

I have just come across this errata in the FAQ and thought I'd weigh in. We have been discussing this same issue on other forums...

 

Here is my attempt at analogy... here goes:

This is based off the current Errata of the rule:

 

All enemy Psykers must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests...

 

Now lets change the line to "must give an extra dollar"

Both replaced with a verb and a noun.

So:

Farseer #1 gives me an extra dollar

Farseer #2 gives me an extra dollar

I now have 2 dollars extra

 

The rule would need to say "must give an extra dollar more than the normal amount" in order for me to not have 2 dollars.

 

Same with the real rule. It would have to read "must roll an extra dice more than the normal amount..." to make the rule not stack.

 

The rule is exclusive to something else being effected. In the analogy it was "me" in the game it would by all enemy psykers.

 

Interesting concept. Unfortunantly you changed the subject in the second part so it kind of doesn't fit right.

"All enemy Psykers must give an extra dollar when taking Psychic tests..."

 

If we keep the subjects you have and substitute back we get "Farseer #1 must roll and extra dice ..." and it all goes to mush after that. ;)

[Desolate]

You have it backward. I am only showing the effect that the farseer has on an enemy psyker. Analogy aside, here is a better way of putting it.

 

"All enemy Psykers must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic Tests"

Farseer #1 makes me roll an extra dice

Farseer #2 makes me roll an extra dice

I now have 2 extra dice to roll.

 

 

Oxford Dictionary

Extra

Adjective

added to an existing amount or number:

they offered him an extra thirty-five cents an hour

a lot of extra work is involved

 

The affects are "added to an existing or usual amount...". Addition to the usual amount. Essentially +extra.

 

So: Original + 1 extra + 1 extra = Original + 2 extra

 

This is my interpretation. Coming back to an analogy.

 

I want to buy an a new computer for $1000 at a store that sells pre-built computers. When I go to purchase the new computer, the sales manager tells me he can offer me a great deal on monitor too. He said he could sell me 1 new monitor for $100 extra. I accept the deal and take my computer and monitor to the cashier. The cashier then tells me he can offer me the same deal as the sales manager and sell me another monitor for $100 extra. Thats 2 monitors for $200 extra! A screaming fast computer and 2 monitors for $1200, not bad!

 

In the analogy, the sales manager is offering 1 monitor for $100 extra making the total cost now $1100. Then the cashier offers me another monitor for $100 extra making the total cost $1200.

 

The original amount for a psychic test is 2d6. One farseer has a piece of wargear that adds an "Extra dice". The psychic test is now 3d6. Another Farseer has a piece of wargear that adds an "Extra dice". I am now adding 2 extra dice to the original amount. The amount is now 4d6.

[Morticon]

I'll ask again - if you have 1, 2 or 3 farseers with warding, have you not fulfilled the wargear criteria by simply rolling an extra dice? One extra dice?

 

If i read the rule after rolling 3d6, I believe i have indeed met the criteria.

Nowhere does it state "for each Farseer with warding..."

 

It simply says Each enemy psyker must roll an extra dice...

 

Once again- I believe you've done that with one extra dice.

[Desolate]

Based on the definition of extra, you can equate it to +1. Two abilities that add 1 to a test would stack to be +2. There is nothing to say otherwise.

 

Take the Autarch ability of master strategist. It does not say you may choose to add 1 to your reserve rolls per autarch. But you do get the choice to add 1 per Autarch per the FAQ.

 

There is nothing that states that the two abilities do not stack. You can satisfy one of the conditions by rolling 1 extra dice. your roll is now 3d6. Then there is a separate piece of wargear that says to roll an extra dice. your roll is now 4d6.

 

It is not an ability that if free-floating in space. It is an effect from a piece of wargear. There are now 2 pieces of wargear telling you to roll an extra dice. "An" is indeed singular, but it is coming from 2 things. If 2 people gave me one dollar, I did not get one dollar from 2 people. I received 1 dollar from each. It would not be proper English to say 2 people gave me 2 dollars. so the fact that an extra dice being singular does not matter because you are being told to roll a single extra dice from 2 separate pieces of wargear. There is nothing to state otherwise. Unless specified otherwise, extra dice is cumulative. They have changed the ability from a finite number to a variable.

 

Not that it matters much, but the current definition of "Dice" is a plural use of "Die" according to the current Oxford Dictionary

[Jacinda]

Does the Farseer make you roll an extra die or does the rule make you roll an extra die.

The Farseer is just the thing that toggles the rule.

 

Since we are going with substitutions for examples, why not change "must roll an extra die" to "must roll the dice with eyes closed."

Farseer #1 make you roll with your eyes closed.

Farseer #2 does the same thing.

The result is the same if one, the other or both are affecting the psyker. It is because they are applying the rule and there is only one rule no matter how many times it is turned on.

 

I do not have the codex in question and in all honesty I don't care -- since I never make rolls anyway -- but I have yet to see a single rule stack with itself unless it explicitly says it will. Even normal shooting attacks explicitly say you count the number of shots from the firing unit. Seraphims with two pistols also need to be told that the number of hits under the flamer template is doubled because the on single effect (laying out the template) is done twice. Otherwise, you only get the single best use out of the multiple applications of the single rule.

 

So in short, unless you can show me where it says it stacks and not where is fails to say it doesn't stack, then there is only ever 1 single extra die. It is how the rules work.

[Desolate]

The Farseer is just the thing that toggles the rule.

Incorrect, the wargear does. And two pieces of the same wargear mean the effect is happening TWICE. One for the first piece, again for the second piece. If two alarms are going off do they become one alarm? No they are two separate alarms. One wargear is setting off the first alarm and the other wargear is setting off the second alarm.

 

Your substitution does not work because you are substituting the action entirely, not just words. You cannot equate "roll an extra dice..." to "roll the dice..." because "the dice" implies a finite number or the sum. The rule itself is altering that sum and telling you how to do so. In my past substitution I just changed the words with other nouns/verbs to create a new view and context of the sentence. "must GIVE an extra DOLLAR"

 

The Eldar are holding a rave party and the initial cost for entering the party is $2. After paying the $2 at the entrance to the building, there are two doors before entering the party.

At door #1 there is a farseer with a magical stone that says "you must give an extra dollar". You gave the farseer an extra dollar.

At door #2 there is another farseer with the same magical stone and makes you give an extra dollar.

On top of the $2 fee for entering the building, you have now just gave $1 extra dollar to the farseer at the first door and gave another $1 extra to the farseer at the second door. You have paid a total of $4 to get to the party. The extras are cumulative, involuntary, and just happen.

 

I do not have the codex in question and in all honesty I don't care -- since I never make rolls anyway -- but I have yet to see a single rule stack with itself unless it explicitly says it will. Even normal shooting attacks explicitly say you count the number of shots from the firing unit. Seraphims with two pistols also need to be told that the number of hits under the flamer template is doubled because the on single effect (laying out the template) is done twice. Otherwise, you only get the single best use out of the multiple applications of the single rule.

As mentioned before the Autarch's ability stacks even though it does not explicitly say it does in the rule. As does the Lictor and Hive Tyrant reserve bonuses, but they stack together too.

 

So in short, unless you can show me where it says it stacks and not where is fails to say it doesn't stack, then there is only ever 1 single extra die. It is how the rules work.

You are making an assumption that it must say it stacks. This is the same as assuming that is must say it does not stack. GW has and has not stated that things stack or do not stack for multiple rules, so there is nothing to base this on because GW is not consistent. What you can base a decision on is what the rule says, not what it does not say. It says "must roll and extra dice" it does not say the ability does not stack, and it does not say the ability does stack. What we can derive from the rule is what Extra means. "Extra" is not adding a singular to an amount. Example: My special edition movie comes with a lot of extras, multiple additions to what the standard movie comes with. Extra is in addition to the original amount. Another example: My special edition movie comes with extra cds, extra can mean any number of cds in addition to the original amount. Similarly, If I have two pieces of gear stating that you must roll +1 dice to your 2d6 roll, it stacks. Unless they say it does not, it does, it is how the rules work. It is doing what GW tells me to do.

[Jacinda]

ok

 

have fun.

[Hellios]

So you just said GW isn't consistent... So couldn't it go either way?

[angry man]

So you just said GW isn't consistent... So couldn't it go either way?

exactly - the RAW we have is simply not explicit enough to make the situation black and white

 

The Farseer is just the thing that toggles the rule.

Incorrect, the wargear does. And two pieces of the same wargear mean the effect is happening TWICE. One for the first piece, again for the second piece. If two alarms are going off do they become one alarm? No they are two separate alarms. One wargear is setting off the first alarm and the other wargear is setting off the second alarm.

83% of analogies used in the OR forum are poo and dont work -- are your alarms making tha same noise or different? are they near to each other or far away? what about volumes? pointless questions about a pointless analogy

 

if wargear stacks then i have a few more appropriate questions - the answers to which i believe are no.

 

1. a red thirsting BA assault squad has a priest attatched - +2 strength or plus 1?

2. marneus calgar - S10?

3. as above - SW with 2FBs - +2S?

 

AM

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

Personally I feel it does stack. The same way rad grenades would, which is a piece if wargear.

Again, looking at the nid FAQ there ability, shadow, seems to stack also.

Yes I run an eldar army, but rarely utilise 2 farseers since craft world eldar was lost ;)

Bear in mind, in an average marine army this will affect 1 model. Maybe 2 if you take 2 Libby's. So I would imagine killing that farseer would become a priority. Which it should be anyway. Yes, suddenly grey knights are not chucking out so many psychic powers. So they are killing on a 3 not a 2 unless they have rads........ So ultimately it's points sunk into wargear that may never get used and are actually quite pointless against a standard marine list.

That's why I really wouldn't care if they stacked, so would say they would. Again it's not as powerful as it seems to be looked at here. Ultimately you have a toughness 3 guy, who can die to an assault cannon with instant death, using this.

[Grey Mage]

I also found this on the Nids FAQ, it's very similar to the Eldar Rune of Warding so thought I'd add it onto this thread as it'll be subject to the same sort of debates etc, but if the mods feel it warrants it's own thread I'll make a new one.

 

Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

 

Notice the similarities, where once Shadow in the Warp said psykers within 12" had to roll 3D6 for their psychic test, meaning multiples don't stack, this now also says to add an extra dice, leaving that possibility open. As I've said, given the shift from 3D6 to +D6 I feel that is the most logical interpretation, and this in the Nid FAQ shows a consistency to GW in terms of similar psychic defenses.

The thing it says 'of A tyranid'. That doesnt imply multiples- that implies atleast one.