Ravenwing and outflanking

[BoonKin]

Almost had a heated debate when my mate challenged me combat-squading my attack squadron (the bikes and attack bike) that has arrived via outflanking. And I showed him this:

 

QUOTE ("Codex Dark Angels FAQ v1.2")Page 27 – Ravenwing Combat Squads, second paragraph. Change to “Much like Combat squads, the squadron’s Attack Bike and Land Speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron’s bikes, but from then on, they always operate as completely independent units of one model.

 

But, his question is whether the arrival of an outflanking squadron is counted as "deployment" (which is the same as pre-game deployment), for the combat squad rule to be applicable.

 

Was my move legal?

 

Would appreciate your opinions on this. Thanks :lol:

[ForTheLion]

Yes, you were utterly correct, as the codex says you have to seperate ur AB and Speeder. The only thing that can outrank a codex is FAQ, and nothing in the FAQ contradicts this. Hence you played it correctly, however i would urge you to consider that even though we as Ravenwing players have to do this, the Vanilla marines "(khan lists) have an option of combat squading their 9 man bike squads, in the case they do this after outflank, they choose how to split them, which once again proves that you were right from several views, not only the Dark Angel one.

 

I dont know why he found it so hard to believe, was a t4(5) 2 wound model so hard to kill? :tu:

[BoonKin]

Yes, you were utterly correct, as the codex says you have to seperate ur AB and Speeder. The only thing that can outrank a codex is FAQ, and nothing in the FAQ contradicts this. Hence you played it correctly, however i would urge you to consider that even though we as Ravenwing players have to do this, the Vanilla marines "(khan lists) have an option of combat squading their 9 man bike squads, in the case they do this after outflank, they choose how to split them, which once again proves that you were right from several views, not only the Dark Angel one.

 

I dont know why he found it so hard to believe, was a t4(5) 2 wound model so hard to kill? :tu:

 

It was because my attack squadron arrived behind his dreanought and vindicator, and I had another attack squadron waiting in reserve too :huh:

 

Having said that, do we Ravenwing have the same option as vanilla marines to choose how we combat squad our bikes?

 

My mate remarked that this would be an issue if I played at a tournament. Where can I find the specific para other than my codex to counter his arguments?

[ForTheLion]

No, as it clearly states under combat squad in the vanilla marines, you can only combat squad 9 man bike unit into 2 squads of 5 bikes and 3 bikes/1 ab.

 

However if you check the DA codex it states once deployed (or enters game if in reserve) its treated as an individual. Theres nothing that can justify his arguement. I guess he could be confused as theres a unit called Attack Bike squadron in other codices where u can take 1-3 attack bikes that act as a singke unit, but other then that theres nothing in his favor

[Droma]

You're fine as long as the attack squadron didn't include a speeder. Combat squads happen when a unit hits the board, outflanking is a type of deployment so you can split your 6 man bike squad into combat squads when they outflank. The attack bike has to be deployed on its own no matter what. They all come in off the same reserves roll though.

[ValourousHeart]

One last bit to add to what Droma said.... They also come in on a single outflank roll, all models enter the same board edge.

[riddles]

One last bit to add to what Droma said.... They also come in on a single outflank roll, all models enter the same board edge.

 

Precedent? If you combat squad a deep striker (say, grey knight terminators or strike squads, or regular SM terminators), you roll the reserve roll, then split into combat squads and roll scatter dice separately for both combat squads.

 

I always used to play 1 roll, same side for my Ravenwing, but the latest Combat Squad FAQs indicates the steps would be:

1. roll for reserves

2. choose to combat squad (or be forced in the case of the RW)

3. roll outflank for both combat squads

[shabbadoo]

Redacted to avoid confusion.

[riddles]

Except that would mean you could only combat squad a unit of deep striking terminators once they have rolled for scatter and hit the table, and that is clearly not the case with the current FAQ.

[shabbadoo]

Re-reading things, this new C: DA FAQ ruling applies to only certain DA units, one of which isn't Ravenwing.

[riddles]

It's the combat squad rulings. The Grey Knights example was just that, an example.

 

Dark Angels FAQ:

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat

Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat

squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,

two different locations? (p23)

A: Yes.

 

You combat squad when you deploy, but before the models hit the board. ergo:

1. roll for reserves

2. forced to combat squad

3. 2 separate deep strike rolls.

 

It is exactly the same mechanic for outflank. The fact that there are no Dark Angels units that can deep strike and combat squad (as we only get 5 man terminator squads) should tell you why this is in our FAQ.

 

You can take shabbadoo's view, or you can take mine, and I'd argue they are equally valid. As long as you are consistent throughout the game, the advantages and disadvantages of separate rolls balance out.

 

[EDIT] gah! you edited before i finished my post! but yes, since you cannot combat squad a unit in reserve (also in the FAQ), but choose to combat squad when they deploy (i.e. after they have made the reserve roll), DA bikes are rolling 2-3 outflank rolls per squad (depending on how many bikers you have).

[ValourousHeart]

Except that we also have examples from the IG Codex where the entire platoon comes in on 1 outflank roll.

 

And a closer point for marines is the drop pod.

You don't combat squad till after the unit exits the pod.

 

You could argue the same about the TDA squad.

The squad is together on the ship... they decide to combat squad... and exit the teleport pad onto the battle field.

 

So from that I draw the conclusion that the ravenwing bikes are together before they hit the table and split apart as they hit the table.

But with your POV how could they be together before they deploy when the attack bike is on the opposite side of the table from the bikes?

 

It also follows with why the bikes can't outflank when they have a speeder... the entire squad has to be together before they are deployed.

So the bikes have to be near the speeder which can't be on a flank side of the table.... so everything is on your side of the table.

[Cactus]

Oh, for the Love of the Lion. I just spent over an hour answering this elswehere. By the magic of copy and paste...

 

Preparing reserves

When deploying their armies, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

Units placed in reserve are not deployed. Yet...

 

Rolling for reserves

... Once all the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.

A unit that arrives from reserve is deployed in that turn, at the moment it is placed on the table.

 

Arriving from Reserve

... Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Unit coherency

... once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2".

The models within a unit that arrives from reserve are not bound by the rules for unit coherency until they have finished moving.

 

Outflank

... When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice... Models move onto the table as described for other reserves, above.

So the correct sequence is:

1. Decline to deploy the unit and instead place it in reserve. Declare if the unit will outflank or deep strike.

2. The unit later arrives from reserve.

3. If the unit is outflanking, roll a dice to determine which of the short table edges it may arrive from.

4. The unit is deployed and may move on from the table edge, as if the models had already been there just off the table.

5. When the unit has finished moving the rules for unit coherency kick in.

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron

... The squadron may include one attack bike... If the squadron is upgraded in size to include six bikes then it may include a land speeder...

FAQs

Q: Can a Ravenwing attack squadron with a Landspeeder in it, which has been held in reserve, use the Outflank special rule? (p27)

A: No.

Combat squads

... The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed.

Ravenwing combat squads

Ravenwing bike squadrons at full strength may fight either as a single unit of six bikes or break down into two three-man combat squads.

 

Much like combat squads, the squadron's attack bike and land speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on, they always operate as completely independent units of one model.

When purchased from the army list, the bikes, attack bike and land speeder are one unit. The attack bike and land speeder do not become individual units until they are deployed. If the unit does not include a land speeder it may elect to outflank.

 

In the case of a Ravenwing Attack Squadron with attack bike we have:

1. Decline to deploy the Ravenwing Attack Squadron and instead place it in reserve, declaring that the unit will outflank.

2. The unit later arrives from reserve.

3. Roll a dice to determine which of the short table edges it may arrive from.

4. The unit is deployed and may move on from the table edge, as if the models had already been there just off the table. From this point on treat the attack bike as an individual unit of one model.

5. After moving, the attack bike does not have to be anywhere near the bikes because they are different units.

 

So the entire Ravenwing Attack Squadron arrives from reserve as the result of a single dice roll. To do otherwise could result in them deploying at different times, which Codex: Dark Angels expressly forbids. Likewise, if you make separate rolls to outflank the bikes and attack bike you are deploying them at different times. Once you've determined which table edge the squadron can arrive from you deploy the models. The attack bike arrives from the same table edge as the bikes, but is not required to move on from the same position.

 

The FAQ answer regarding combat squads is simply asserting a rule that already applies to all models arriving from reserve: deploy each model by moving it as explained in the main rulebook and ensure unit coherency is established after moving. References to Grey Knights and Imperial Guard are wholly irrelevant.

 

Deep striking is a poor comparison because the method of deployment is different.

 

That's the way I've always played it. Sometimes people will expect/assume the attack bike to be rolled for separately at some stage in the process but that's not what the rules say.

 

90% of FAQs are unnecessary. :smt064

[shabbadoo]

Hmmm. More thoughts:

 

The C: DA FAQ states:

 

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat

Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat

squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,

two different locations? (p23)

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with

the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be

deployed in different locations? In addition, does this

still only count as a single deployment? (p23)

 

A: Yes to both questions.

 

It would appear that this is only about not moving the unit into play and then splitting it using Combat Squads, but instead splitting the unit when it becomes available and then deploying both Combat Squads anywhere along the table edge, not at one point which then then move away from. Combat Squadding Assault Marines or Terminators can Deepstrike into totally different locations instead, not both Deepstrike in on one location and then they scatter independently of each other or Run away from each other independently. Of course the latter is irrelevant to DA, they not having 10-man Deathwing Terminator squads, but this is also irrelevant for Outflanking Ravenwing squads, they not being made up of 10 Marines. Likely an oversight that does not take into account the oddball Ravenwing unit structure, but them's the breaks. The above questions/answers apply not at all to Outflanking Ravenwing Attack Squadrons either. Gotta have 10 men. The devil is in the details.

 

At least it affects Scouts, Company Veterans, and the three core Greenwing units.

[riddles]

except greenwing in pods have different rules as well - they split after landing.

 

i think there's enough ambiguity to read it either way - 1 reserve roll and 2 outflanks or 1 reserve roll and 1 outflank.

 

thanks gw.

[MadDoc]

Gotta have 10 men. The devil is in the details.

A full size Ravenwing Attack Squadron is made up of 10 men (6 Individual bikers + 2 Attack bike crew + 2 Land Speeder crew= 10 men), so even if someone wanted to be a pedant and sieze on the '10 men' wording you'd be fine with a full size Squadron as it will still be applicable to them.

 

In fact, all the Ravenwing units in the current Codex (other than Sammael) are based around a full 10 man squad.

[Cactus]

A full size Ravenwing Attack Squadron is made up of 10 men (6 Individual bikers + 2 Attack bike crew + 2 Land Speeder crew= 10 men)

In which case the squadron can't outflank, there's only one table edge they can enter from, and the point is moot. Also, only the bikes and attack bike have the combat squads rule so the FAQ could be read as not applicable on the grounds that at most only 8 men have the rule.

[Droma]

Thanks Cactus for going into the long form, and you're right 90% of FAQ's are not needed if you properly read the rules.

[MadDoc]

Actually there is nothing that stops a full strength Squadron from outflanking (the Speeder will have to come on from the DA table edge, but that doesn't stop the other models from outflanking, since they count as seperate units that just happen to deploy simultaneously - see the Ravenwing Combat Squads rule, p.27, C: DA 4E).

 

If you read the rules properly you'd have noticed that the Ravenwing Combat Squads rule includes the Attack bike and Land Speeder and notes that both always deploy independently and form 1 model units. If the whole squadron is placed in Reserve then when they become available they seperate (as per the RW Combat Squad rules) and then they're deployed independently (the Speeder following the normal rules and the bikes and attack bike using either the usual rules or outflank (due to having the Scouts rule)).

 

Edit - If taking a full size Squadron cost the bikes/attack bike their Scouts rule (and any linked abilities like Outflank) then that would be noted. It'd also be such a massive downside to taking a full size Squadron as to make doing so undesirable.

[SeattleDV8]

No, that is incorrect.

DA FAQ

Q: Can a Ravenwing attack squadron with a

Landspeeder in it, which has been held in reserve, use

the Outflank special rule? (p27)

A: No.

In your version you would have to Combat Squad in reserve, which you cannot.

[Cactus]

MadDoc, I think I addressed those points in my wall of text. The point I tried to convey is that "deploy" is only used in the rules to describe the act of placing a unit on the table for the first time. This happens after the reserves roll and after the outflanking dice roll so when the Ravenwing attack squadron is deployed and splits up, it is already committed to one table edge or another.

 

Regarding the combat squads FAQ, "two different locations" is not the same as "any two locations that are not the same". Some pairs of locations are still forbidden by the other pertinent rules. It's actually a very good question and answer because it doesn't change anything, just clarifies what the rules already say because they didn't say it clearly.

 

Being able to outflank with the land speeder might make it worth the points. :P

[shabbadoo]

Very much so, but, as things are, this featured FAQ does nothing for the Ravenwing.

[BigGumbo]

Being able to outflank with the land speeder might make it worth the points. :D

 

There's always room for one in a RW squadron that you're going to use to guide termies using DWA, though.

[Harleqvin]

Like several others have said.

All models in the Squadron. Bikes, attack bikes and Landspeeder must be deployed at the same time and from the same board edge, as they are part of the same unit until they hit the board.

For the case of of Outflanking, you can only outflank with a RWAS if there is no Landspeeder in the squadron. As all models must come in on the same side of the board you can't outflank move as the Landspeeder does not have that ability "Stealth".

 

When the models hit the board they split from each other, attack bike and Landspeeder and the 6 man bike squad can combat squad at this time, too.

 

So the answer to your question is that you did the right thing as long as it had no Landspeeder in the Raven Wing Attack Squadron list. If there was a Landspeeder in your RWAS list, you would not have been able to Outflank and it would have been needed to be done as a normal reserve roll on from your normal deployment edge. If there was only bikes (3 or 6 and then combat squading the 6 to make two 3 man squads,) and attack bikes, you can do the outflank but they all come in on the same board side.

 

RWAS = Outflank

3 man = yes

3 man+AB = yes

6 man = yes

6 man+AB = yes

6 man, combat squading into two 3 man = yes

6 man, combat squading into two 3 man + AB = yes

any of the above with a Landspeeder = no

 

This is all with Rules and the FAQs for both the Codex and the BRB

[shabbadoo]

except greenwing in pods have different rules as well - they split after landing.

That is not true. Read your C: DA again. Unlike C: SM, which does have a Drop Pod entry which states that a unit which deploys via Drop Pod can Combat Squad upon disembarking (which is an exception to the normal rules), C: DA has a Drop Pod entry that mentions no such rule exception, meaning DA units arriving via Drop Pod can NOT Combat Squad, but merely disembark as per the normal rules for disembarking. Sure, this could have been dealt with in the FAQ, like so many other things still could be, but it hasn't been. Lots of people overlook/fail to notice this. Remember, we have the old, turd codex. :blink:

 

As to the FAQ questions and Greenwing units, see the above for the Drop Pod thing, which is not what I was referring to being what the FAQ affects so far as Greenwing units are concerned. What the FAQ affects is that a 10-man Greenwing unit need not enter play at one spot and split into Combat Squads *at that spot*. The two Combat Squads can be deployed at either end of the table edge if you wish (i.e. different locations).

 

It's the combat squad rulings. The Grey Knights example was just that, an example.

 

Dark Angels FAQ:

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat

Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat

squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,

two different locations? (p23)

A: Yes.

 

You combat squad when you deploy, but before the models hit the board. ergo:

1. roll for reserves

2. forced to combat squad

3. 2 separate deep strike rolls.

 

It is exactly the same mechanic for outflank. The fact that there are no Dark Angels units that can deep strike and combat squad (as we only get 5 man terminator squads) should tell you why this is in our FAQ.

 

You can take shabbadoo's view, or you can take mine, and I'd argue they are equally valid. As long as you are consistent throughout the game, the advantages and disadvantages of separate rolls balance out.

My view takes everything at face value, and nothing more. The only Dark Angels unit that can Deepstrike into play and Combat Squad is the Assault Squad. This FAQ ruling applies to them in all ways, as they can enter play from Reserves via Deepstrike or by just entering play from their own table edge. No other unit in C: DA can Combat Squad after Deepstriking, period (see the Drop Pod lameness above). The rule is in our FAQ for the units that is does apply to, in the way that it particularly applies to them, and it works in conjunction with all of the various rules delineated in (or left out of) C: DA and the C: DA FAQ.

 

Simply put, other Chapters can do more things than the DA can, but only because of what their unit options are and what their rules mention.