HH was planned?

[Grimtooth]

Not by Chaos, but by the Emperor.

 

Going on the assumption that the Emperor, in his lifetime and travels, learned of the fall of the Eldar. A utopian society could only last for so long before it fell and created what we know as the forces of Chaos. In his unlimited wisdom, the only way that the human race would not succumb to the same fate would to prevent it from reach the pinnalce of society that the Eldar were pre-fall by forcing it into conflict. I look at some things as evidence,

 

1. Primary example of the Eldar society going unchecked and where they ended up.

2. Too many holes in the HH timeline where the Emperor should have known due to his abilities and yet let events happen.

3. He had already proven that the human race could indeed conquer the galaxy and reunite mankind across the stars, the last true enemy could only be mankind itself.

4. Since the HH, mankind has gone into a stalemate in terms of progresison towards a utopian society due to the conflict created not only with the HH, but also the xenos races being given a chance to reform in the strife.

 

It just seems very engineered, by the Emperor, to ensure a continued, albeit harsh, life of humanity.

 

Thoughts?

[Andiana]

i'm not sure if the emperor planned it... i wouldnt be surprised. But i'm sure he knew all the events were taking place even when he was resigned to his lab and the webway.

 

he just chose to let things play out the way they did knowing that he would be sacrificing himself to the golden throne. I believe it's hinted at in outcast dead,

[Legatus]

Going on the assumption that the Emperor, in his lifetime and travels, learned of the fall of the Eldar. A utopian society could only last for so long before it fell and created what we know as the forces of Chaos. In his unlimited wisdom, the only way that the human race would not succumb to the same fate would to prevent it from reach the pinnalce of society that the Eldar were pre-fall by forcing it into conflict.

Erm... or, perhaps, if the humans were forbidden to worship deities of any kind and their thoughts and spiritual minds were guided by the Emperor.

[King Willy]

Reading the HH novels i get the feeling that the Emperor, while powerful was still being the usual Human Douche. I really don't think he was doing anything other then trying to further his goals and the goals of the Imperium, I think he was so smart he could easily predict things but to really do something that convoluted and stupid is more in line with Tzeentch.

 

I think he is still human, in that emotions hold sway over most of the stuff he does but his powers and abilities allow him to actually achieve such any desire he wishes.

Besides the Imperium isn't in a stalemate towards utopian its more on a downward spiral to full blown Anarchy.

[Demus Ragnok]

Reading the HH novels i get the feeling that the Emperor, while powerful was still being the usual Human Douche. I really don't think he was doing anything other then trying to further his goals and the goals of the Imperium, I think he was so smart he could easily predict things but to really do something that convoluted and stupid is more in line with Tzeentch.

 

I think he is still human, in that emotions hold sway over most of the stuff he does but his powers and abilities allow him to actually achieve such any desire he wishes.

Besides the Imperium isn't in a stalemate towards utopian its more on a downward spiral to full blown Anarchy.

 

Being smart helps, but one must consider that the E was not exactly just a "smart guy". He was the single most powerful human psyker to ever live. And being able to "see" possible futures and influence them can change individual motivations.

[Hellios]

Reading the HH novels i get the feeling that the Emperor, while powerful was still being the usual Human Douche. I really don't think he was doing anything other then trying to further his goals and the goals of the Imperium, I think he was so smart he could easily predict things but to really do something that convoluted and stupid is more in line with Tzeentch.

 

I think he is still human, in that emotions hold sway over most of the stuff he does but his powers and abilities allow him to actually achieve such any desire he wishes.

Besides the Imperium isn't in a stalemate towards utopian its more on a downward spiral to full blown Anarchy.

 

Being smart helps, but one must consider that the E was not exactly just a "smart guy". He was the single most powerful human psyker to ever live. And being able to "see" possible futures and influence them can change individual motivations.

 

His foresight apparently wasn't as good as that of the Eldar and even the Eldar didn't see everything and often disagree with each other as the future is not fixed. One of a few reasons other Eldar do not trust those from Ulthwé is that the Eldar from Ulthwé seem to be able to see further and with more clarity than most other Eldar... Which means they do things that not even the other Eldar understand let alone agree with.

 

I think the Emperor is often overated, just as space marines are overrated and exaggerated for cool stories. Like when one of the Iron Snakes kills X number of Dark Eldar in cc in 3 seconds... I'm not saying it couldn't happen but this is also the race that captures Space marines and then fights them for entertainment and whose cousins from the craftworld have had their Exarchs (sgts) fight extended combats with space marine captains (The Exarch lost but my point is he didn't roll over and that was to a captain.)...

 

I'm more in favour of the Tzeentch Idea... If Chaos won it would apparently burn itself but if Chaos could set the galaxy up so that no one would ever win that would keep them going forever... Endless plotting for Tzeentch (As each faction tries to gain an advantage over the others.), Endless war for Khorne, as glory comes to some death and despair would go to others and feed Nurgle.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

There is nothing remotely anarchic about the Imperium, either in the true meaning of anarchy or the incorrect vox populi meaning.

[King Willy]

It's heading that way, more and more planets are turning to Chaos, the mechanicum a losing STCs and there practise is more spirtiual then science now, The emperor is now barely alive and the only way to keep him fresh is to sacrifice a thousand psykers everyday, the Administratum is becoming more convoluted and less effective, eventually commanders will be leaving to follow chaos till everyones out for themselves.

Thats a road to Anarchy in the governmental sense if ever I ve seen one.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

That is neither political nor philosophical anarchy.

[Andiana]

It's heading that way, more and more planets are turning to Chaos, the mechanicum a losing STCs and there practise is more spirtiual then science now, The emperor is now barely alive and the only way to keep him fresh is to sacrifice a thousand psykers everyday, the Administratum is becoming more convoluted and less effective, eventually commanders will be leaving to follow chaos till everyones out for themselves.

Thats a road to Anarchy in the governmental sense if ever I ve seen one.

 

yea gw are going for the push of how grim things are suppossed to be in the 40k setting this edition, but if we think about it... think just how large the imperium is. it's a galaxy sized empire, where the amount of systems, planets and people is so vast it's uncountable.

 

the planets that have turned to chaos are not even a blip in the amount of planets, the mechanicum has been the same for the last 10k years, the emperor's physical body is merely a place holder to allow his true spirtual power to work. Lets not forget he's been fighting chaos in the webway and warp ever since the heresy single handed. AND still keeping an eye on the mortal realm. the admin takes a long time to respond because everything so big it takes along time for messages to get from one side of the galaxy to the other. But when they do respond. Boy do they. Space Marines hit hard and fast until the imperial guard comes and steam rolls all before it with sheer gunpowder and attrition.

 

Honestly, i think the emperor is fine with how things have been after the hersey broke out and he knew utopia would never happen. 99% of his people are loyal to the extreme to him. And should they fail, he'll eventually be reborn to lead a new great cursade to purge the xenos and heretics.

[Arkangilos]

I think he planned it to defeat chaos.

 

Chaos is afraid of him, as you can tell from the HH. They knew he would defeat them.

 

I think that he did it so he can become reborn as a god and lead humanity to the ultimate victory. Those are the end times when Russ and the others will return and fight against chaos one last time.

[EPK]

Going on the assumption that the Emperor, in his lifetime and travels, learned of the fall of the Eldar. A utopian society could only last for so long before it fell and created what we know as the forces of Chaos.

 

Should note that the Eldar's decadence and fall only crated or at least finished creating one Chaos god - Slaanesh.

 

Also, as has already been noted, the 10,000 years of war following the Heresy probably isn't far from what the Choas Gods wanted (except they would want it to continue forever). Certainly they didn't want a complete win by Horus which the Cabal predicted

would ultimately spell the end of Chaos

. But we can't say the Emperor won completely either, considering his current state, however he may have forced this stalemate intetntionally for an act yet to come. From Outcast Dead we realize,

He learns exactly how and when he will die. He may also realize what the Cabal says will come to pass - if he was to win and live, Chaos would creep back in. Instead of choosing an all out win for Horus, which would cost his own life and the end of a united humanity, he came up with a third option and implemented it - one which has himself kept alive on the golden throne (which I believe he converted to this purpose after he found out what would happen). We just have yet to see it unfold.

Unfortunately, the current state of things - an army of chaotic space marines, endless war, cults, etc. etc. - probably serves the Chaos gods' purposes just fine for now.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

Or maybe The Emperor foresaw a greater threat looming that required the ramifications of the HH to stave off. If the Space Marine legions had stayed united, what could they have accomplished? Eradicating every last Xenos? Probably. They probably could have wiped out the Orks, the Tau, and The Eldar for sure. I am not so sure about Necrons and Bugs. But maybe the Emperor saw a greater purpose, a greater threat that the galaxy would need to maintain its various factions, human and xenos alike, to thwart. Keep in mind, for the most part? We only know about ONE GALAXY of 40k. And maybe that was the purpose in and of itself, to keep man in one galaxy. Maybe he knew something of the terrors looming in other galaxies if man was allowed to unite and expand. Maybe they wake up a Cuthulu-scale eldritch horror if they purge this galaxy and set about another one...

[Tezzy]

I'd be severely disappointed if it ever came about that the Horus Heresy was foresaw, allowed or even planned by the Emperor. It would entirely ruin the plot of the novel series for a start and make all the events prior to the revelation without real consequence.

 

It's stated that the Emperor knew about the fall of the Eldar and was planning to establish a human utopia across the galaxy with both the lessons learned by the Eldar's fall and the Imperial Truth which would eventually sap the Chaos Gods' power once humanity were the dominant power in the Galaxy.

 

With all that established, the Emperor and the Primarch's could lead the species against the likes of the Orks, the Nids and the Necrons. And with the Webway at their command and the legions united, that wouldn't be any great shakes.

[Warp Angel]

The Big E(gomaniac)mperor has more pride than all of his Primarchs put together.

 

He was unaware of the outcome of the Heresy until the events of the Outcast Dead, but even then he doesn't seem to put a whole lot of care or concern into the outcome.

 

This is especially interesting when in every other 40k book, including many of the Horus Heresy books, visions of the future are not fixed and can be altered. No fate is absolute.

 

The planning of the Emperor to let himself "die" to Horus would also go against decades long established fluff in which the Emperor, up until the final duel, thought that he could still redeem Horus and didn't fight with all of his strength, which is what ultimately led to his defeat and why he as able to land a "final blow" that killed Horus - he finally started to fight for real.

 

I have to disagree with the premise as described by the original poster.

[Cactus]

In his unlimited wisdom, the only way that the human race would not succumb to the same fate would to prevent it from reach the pinnalce of society that the Eldar were pre-fall by forcing it into conflict.

It's been stated in the past that the Emperor's long-term goal was to guide humanity in its evolution to a fully psychic species, helping it to avoid falling into the same trap as the eldar. This may have been ret-conned somewhere.

[Black Mage 257]

My interpretation of the Heresy in regards to the Emperor is that he probably did have an idea that it may happen but obviously due to the fickle nature of the universe/fates it was undescernable if it would definetly happen or not. The big E in his mighty wisdom still was/kind of is human and is just as prone to error/emotions like everyone else. (As we see when the Emperor was unable to bring himself to kill Horus.) I also attribute his work in the webway/immaterium to be in some way distracting him from making key decisions or even influencing his ability to make decisions on the Imperium/Heresy/Future.

 

Another theory, probably stupid on my part and containg a few little spoilers is

 

 

The interesting point would be if the Emperor had foreseen what the Cabal had foreseen, thus the emperor would cause the heresy, make sure he lost and eventually allow Chaos to be destroyed. This would justify his reasoning for holding back against Horus, why he allowed the events that transgressed to happen and why he never waded in at any point to grant any real assistance.