Deathwing vs. The rest of the world

[riddles]

I posted this in response to a request over at another forum. Thought it might be quite useful here, especially as I know Droma posts over here, so there's got to be a few Deathwing nuts about;

 

Belial Th/Sh

Banner/Apoth

5x Deathwing squads w/ CML, CF, 3x Th/Sh

3x Typhoon Speeders w/ MM

2x AC/LC Predators

 

Droma's list. Solid deathwing with fire support.

 

So some information I'd like would be strategies vs the most common builds for those armies. How do you tend to deploy, what units should I watch out for, what should I destroy first to have the best chance of winning, etc

 

Common builds are

GK - Draigowing

Actually not something you should be scared of. at 1850 you're looking at probably 15 paladins and 3 psyflemen. If the paladins are walking, you out range them by a long long way and every long range gun you have causes ID (apart from the autocannon). Focus fire on the non draigo squad so he can't wound allocate. You have enough missiles that he should fail a couple of saves and a failed save to S8 hurts him way more than it hurts you. If he's running big blob and solo paladins, pick off the soloers first so they won't score. Phalanx deployment works for you here because storm shields should trump him in combat as long as you throw enough terminators in there. If he reserves the paladins, focus fire on 1 dread to get rid of it. While they're not a threat to your terminators, your speeders and preds are in danger. Usual tactics apply - use preds for speeder cover, deploy in the corners etc.

 

GK - mech strike/purifier squads + psybolt dreads

the best purifier lists at the moment are 5 man in a razorbacks. hit the transports first. again, the dreads are only a threat to your speeders and preds, which can be protected through deployment and use of cover. once you peel the purifiers out of the transports, they're walking and have a 24 inch range, you should be able to pick them off relatively easily. storm shields should help you win combats. another game where you won't be using DWA and phalanxing up on your deployment.

 

A note on the other damnable GK build: Coteaz, librarian, assassins, dreads and 3 storm ravens. For god's sake, if you see anything like this, deploy in cover. DCA will tear you to bits out in the open. If you're in cover, they are so much less scary. Focus fire on the storm ravens. they may have a 3+ cover, but you have a lot of guns.

 

DE - Venom Spam

Pray? Toughest matchup of the lot here. You must hit the venoms first to protect your terminators, which leaves their dark lance toting stuff to go after your mech. I'd advise back line deployment here to get the most out of your range. bubble wrapping your preds with terminators will also be helpful.

 

BA - ? I'm not sure what common BA lists are so any help there is helpful

I really like the BA codex because of the variety of lists it can bring.

- Descent of Angels: jump packers with melta. either pure, with sang guard, honour guard or vanguard as a hammer. usually with dante. Can be backed up by missile devs. Drop 1 sqaud with DWA to deal with the Devs and claim backfield objectives. Bubble wrap your preds to survive the initial drop assault.

- MechHammer: lasplas razorbacks with 3 baals and 3 regular preds. Possibly the toughest point and click list they have. Again, I'd drop 1 squad into the backfield to try and get at the predators. Baals will either outflank (in which case, there's feck all you can do other than deploy in the middle), or provide moving cover for the rbacks. Try and get side armour shots with the typhoons. Otherwise, transports are again a priority (especially as they are rocking plasma).

- Blood Rodeo: one of my personal favourite armies, and one i'm contemplating using my ravenwing bikers for. 1 libby, couple of sang priests, 30 jump packers, 20 bikers. Bikes providing a 4+ cover screen for jumpers. everyone gets FNP and furious charge. Bikes will be used to pin units in place for a jumper charge. Not much you can do here except castle up and hit the bikes with everything you've got. BA jumpers are actually quite a threat to you because of the volume of wounds they'll generate. feed them a squad and bring your counter charge in heavy. Because of the nature of their army, you should be able to get a couple of multi charges off with your counter charge, denying them FC.

 

IG - Leafblower

One of the few armies where I would commit to DWA. drop 3 squads in on 1 flank, use your long range fire to shake/stun anything with an AP2 weapon that might be in range (executioners, demolishers, plasma vets). Run with the squads you've dropped. Next turn, engage his tanks in CC and try to roll up the line, while maintaining shaken results on dangerous stuff.

 

SW - It doesn't seem common in this meta but they're still a really strong codex so tips vs SW would be helpful

Good units: long fangs, grey hunters, thunderwolves, wolf guard. They can have a number of builds. Usual drop pod defence applies (bubble wrap, reserve). Again, dropping 1 squad in to deal with the long fangs is a good idea. Thunderwolves can be a major issue, so prepare a road bump unit, or block their movement with your speeders. Grey hunters are as effective recieving a charge as they are charging. 10 man units will put some hurt on you, so need to be shot at. 5 man units, not so much.

 

Nids:

you can go toe to toe with their big critters thanks to storm shields. You will not go toe to toe against the likes of genestealers. Deploying in cover is always effective against nids as they lack grenades. Try and get multi charges on big gribblies and units of small gribblies to generate fearless wounds (hit the small ones, make the big one take many many armour saves). Hive guard are the only real ranged AT threat. Tervigons should be a priority as FNP on smaller beasties is a PITA.

 

Orks:

can be quite a toughie. Against the green tide, again you need a back line deployment and to frag the hell out of them. Side armour on battlewagons should be relatively easy to get with speeders and preds on board corners, but the damnable kustom force field will cause you to curse the name or gork. Nob bikers WILL beat you in combat. Krak missiles are the order of the day and should be first priority for you if they show up.

 

Eldar:

I've actually found Eldar to be one of my toughest matchups. Simply because, if you pull an objective game (2/3), they will always have something fast to contest on the last turn because their vehicles are so damn survivable. Focus fire is the order of the day. Fire dragons and harlequins are a problem. Banshees not so much as they won't generate the volume of wounds necessary (even with doom). Because they lack really hard hitting combat units, you can afford to just sit DW squads on objectives and challenge them to take them off you. Remember that you can bubblewrap an objective because of the size of your bases, which will make it very hard to contest. Things like war walkers and vypers should be an early target priority because they can, and will torrent you off the board.

 

Be as vague or detailed as you want, try and address these common armies but tips vs orks/nids/etc couldn't hurt either. We've discussed lists so long that I think a good long chat on how to play certain matchups can only help us.

 

What I've written is only basic. But the basic playstyle of Deathwing, as discussed ad nauseum here generally fits for all these matchups, bar IG.

- Support your DW squads with other DW squads: 5 terminators is fairly easily dealt with for most armies, either in combat or through high volume shooting. By having 15 other terminators within 12 inches, the combat option is practically removed.

- Target priority: elminate the enemy's speed advantage - transports being the biggie here. Walking units are at a significant disadvantage against DW. Make them walk.

- Focus fire. can't stress this enough. Pick something that needs to die, and pour enough fire into it that it does. For transports and certain vehicles, an immobilise, stunned, or couple of weapon destroyed results are enough. once you've stunned the vindicator, for example, it's not a threat next turn so move on. it goes without saying that GK vehicles need immobilised, wrecked or exploded results. However, an armless psyfleman is a useless psyfleman.

- never leave more than 1 DW squad in reserve. You have a lot of resources tied up in those squads, don't stick them away. The only times I'd do this are against mech guard and when someone tries to be clever by reserving. Drop into his deployment zone and form your phalanx there.

[EPK]

I didn't read this... but can we agree to not use that shade of red in a quoted text box. The contrast between the gray and red is null and it's killing my eyes.

[riddles]

edited for your convenience EPK :P

[Nurglanth]

Great combat guide!

[march10k]

I got to face DE lance-spam twice at regionals in this year's ard boyz, and then face 250 greenskins with two named characters! worst possible matchups for DW, I swear the TO did it on purpose! I actually beat one of the DE lists and tied against the other, but in both games, it was only by the skin of my teeth. When they have more lances than guard have flashlights, it's going to be tough. What made things work for me was LOS-denial, target priority, and sheer luck. In the game that I actually won, I managed to down all three ravagers on the top of turn one, leaving him with only eight or nine lances to harrass me with, so luck played a large role.

 

Against the orks, well, what are you going to do? I didn't actually realize at the time that Ghazkul is pretty vulnerable to S8 melee weapons, so when I had the chance to charge him, I didn't. I killed well over a hundred greenskins, but the variable objective that we rolled up mid-game turned out to be terrain feature control, so he inevitably won 13-4, with three more contested. Once that came up as the objective, he didn't even try to kill me any more, he just spread out smugly and waited for time to expire, there was no way to kill enough orks fast enough! I haven't faced nob bikers with DW, but the green tide is a tricky thing. If you're playing with a limited number of objectives, kill enough greenskins fast enough, and bubble wrap enough objectives, you can force a draw...and in a kill points game, you should own them. IIRC, they cap out at 30 bodies per squad, so it's just a matter of focusing your fire on one squad at a time, building up a 1-2 KP advantage, and then going all points-denial on them.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I expect nob bikers to fall "easily" to a DW squad. they are vulnerable to instakill and have just a 5+ save... their S5 attacks can be diverted by 2+ saves and powerklaws go last.. so I expect both DW squad and nob bikers to die.. but the trade-off is that the Nob bikers are usually way more expensive than a DW squad.

[riddles]

I got to face DE lance-spam twice at regionals in this year's ard boyz, and then face 250 greenskins with two named characters! worst possible matchups for DW, I swear the TO did it on purpose! I actually beat one of the DE lists and tied against the other, but in both games, it was only by the skin of my teeth. When they have more lances than guard have flashlights, it's going to be tough. What made things work for me was LOS-denial, target priority, and sheer luck. In the game that I actually won, I managed to down all three ravagers on the top of turn one, leaving him with only eight or nine lances to harrass me with, so luck played a large role.

 

Against the orks, well, what are you going to do? I didn't actually realize at the time that Ghazkul is pretty vulnerable to S8 melee weapons, so when I had the chance to charge him, I didn't. I killed well over a hundred greenskins, but the variable objective that we rolled up mid-game turned out to be terrain feature control, so he inevitably won 13-4, with three more contested. Once that came up as the objective, he didn't even try to kill me any more, he just spread out smugly and waited for time to expire, there was no way to kill enough orks fast enough! I haven't faced nob bikers with DW, but the green tide is a tricky thing. If you're playing with a limited number of objectives, kill enough greenskins fast enough, and bubble wrap enough objectives, you can force a draw...and in a kill points game, you should own them. IIRC, they cap out at 30 bodies per squad, so it's just a matter of focusing your fire on one squad at a time, building up a 1-2 KP advantage, and then going all points-denial on them.

 

lance spam i don't fear *as* much, simply because he have shiny 3++ storm shields. The poisoned shots from the venoms are far more deadly. 24 shots a piece can put a heck of a lot of wounds on a DW squad, you're bound to fail saves sooner or later.

 

as for green tide...just a horrible horrible matchup. But then, it's a bad matchup for most armies out there. Not enough people packing thunderfire/whirlwind/massed light arms in TAC lists anymore because it gimps you against most other TAC lists. or anything with mech.

[Droma]

Hey Riddles thanks for bringing the discussion over here as well. I know a lot of the counters to those armies but I'm not a frequent tournament goer so I've only played a lot of those lists once. So I wanted a wider range of opinions to help me prep for the tournament. That and the deathwing tactica thread on warseer kinda died so I wanted to stir the pot.

[march10k]

as for green tide...just a horrible horrible matchup. But then, it's a bad matchup for most armies out there. Not enough people packing thunderfire/whirlwind/massed light arms in TAC lists anymore because it gimps you against most other TAC lists. or anything with mech.

 

 

Oh, I dunno...I think my mech guard would do well...at 1850, it packs 56 heavy weapons shots and four pieplates, and most of the heavy weapons shots are S5 or S6, so not that great against anything that isn't an ork or a nid... I would be able to see off a good 50-60 orks a turn without breaking a sweat, and far more if/when they get within 24", and I can't see an 1850 point green tide having more than maybe 200 of them...

 

Actually, a green tide is manageable for any list whose answer to MEQ is volume of fire, as opposed to AP...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

thanks for this, its a good guide for DW armies

[carmachu]

I'm just curious what was in the green tide to get up to 250 orks. And how many points was that.

[angel of fire]

hmmmmm thats an awesome list ive been running about the same - fire support with lr instead

[RayJ]

I use that same list, and some close variations on it a lot. This guide does a great explanation of general strategies and should be required reading until we get our new codex.

 

Our worst matchups are definitely tabler IG (focus on hydras and vendettas), Venom spam DE, and Horde Orks. Properly supported scarab farm necrons are also a very real problem, but that is mostly due to having to deal with multiple solar pulses.

 

Any Tyranid list running 3 or more tervigons can become difficult, but if the opponent is using two, the swarm isn't big enough to cause much issue for Deathwing.

 

With rumors of our codex coming in a couple of months, I haven't felt the need to update our own tactica thread recently. I will begin massive playtesting and create a new version of the Playing Dark Angels thread as soon as I have relevant info on new units and rules. If we are indeed coming in April, I expect to see something within the next 3-4 weeks.

[Droma]

@RayJ

 

Should be empire in April and new info points to Chaos in may. Don't expect DA until maybe October.

 

Edit: The usual amount of salt applies.

[march10k]

I'm just curious what was in the green tide to get up to 250 orks. And how many points was that.

 

 

Well, 180 of them were 6 mobs of 30 boys...then there were the ones that are like BS2 autocannons, can't remember what they're called, and some outflanking kommandos (with their special character). It was ard boyz, so 2500 points. Given that that points total includes Ghazkul and hte kommando special character, I know you can get 200 orks in 1850, maybe even 1750, and still have a viable list.

 

@RayJ

 

Should be empire in April and new info points to Chaos in may. Don't expect DA until maybe October.

 

Edit: The usual amount of salt applies.

 

Any order of arrival is fine with me... I wanted to start Ksons back when they had two wounds instead of their current ridiculousity, so a new C:CSM may inspire me to actually do them...and I play both DA and empire....so this is shaping up to be an awesome (..ly expensive) year for me!

[Vanek]

Thanks for the army overview, it helps out a lot!

 

When running mixed squads (2 TH/SS:3 PF/SB), is it better to put your CML on a TH/SS equipped model for the save? Or a SB armed model for the wound allocation?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In a SBmodel. You don't wan't to allocate 3++ saves to the thunderhammer and lose the cyclone.

[riddles]

In a SBmodel. You don't wan't to allocate 3++ saves to the thunderhammer and lose the cyclone.

 

this.

[EPK]

Great stuff Riddles.

 

- Support your DW squads with other DW squads: 5 terminators is fairly easily dealt with for most armies, either in combat or through high volume shooting. By having 15 other terminators within 12 inches, the combat option is practically removed.

 

This is a good rule of thumb for marines in general, but sometimes the situation simply doesn't allow it, or at least not to that degree. In the case of a 4 or 5 objective match, I would see you running in pairs at best.

 

------------------------

 

@Droma and Riddles (or anyone, really)

 

Typically I have 2 or 3x Deathwing squads, some greenwing in there along with the Typhoons, Preds and a LRC. Besides Belial's hammer unit in the LRC, the other two DW were usually set up in some utility type way (like, 2x TH/SS, PW/SB, DLC, CML). Well, last night I used all DW for the first time - this list. Being it is a new step for me, I wasn't totally sure on the best load out.

 

5x Deathwing squads w/ CML, CF, 3x Th/Sh

Would you consider this optimum load out for footsloging DW?

 

No claws in any squad? I suppose with the logic above, if anything the CML should have had the claws. But perhaps you can elaborate on your chosen load out for said unit? You frown upon squads of 5x TH/SS?

 

I can say, with that list I linked, I missed the LS Tyhoons, and I'm considering the list you (Droma's) started with in this thread.

 

Also, am I wrong or does that list add up to like 1870?

[Captain Collius]

great guide thank you

[Vanek]

In smaller point games (1k points), would having only 2 squads of DW with plenty of support be a bad thing? Or would 3 squads and a dread or predator be the best route?

[riddles]

Great stuff Riddles.

 

- Support your DW squads with other DW squads: 5 terminators is fairly easily dealt with for most armies, either in combat or through high volume shooting. By having 15 other terminators within 12 inches, the combat option is practically removed.

 

This is a good rule of thumb for marines in general, but sometimes the situation simply doesn't allow it, or at least not to that degree. In the case of a 4 or 5 objective match, I would see you running in pairs at best.

 

I'd say pairs at minimum. 5 terminators is not hard to deal with. 10 is much trickier. 15-20 is a ballache.

 

As to 4-5 objectives, I will get to place 2 objectives at a minimum. They WILL be 12.1 inches from each other - mutual support squads.

 

I only need to contest the rest/eliminate my opponents scoring units. that's where the other 3 DW squads and my fire support come in.

 

 

@Droma and Riddles (or anyone, really)

 

Typically I have 2 or 3x Deathwing squads, some greenwing in there along with the Typhoons, Preds and a LRC. Besides Belial's hammer unit in the LRC, the other two DW were usually set up in some utility type way (like, 2x TH/SS, PW/SB, DLC, CML). Well, last night I used all DW for the first time - this list. Being it is a new step for me, I wasn't totally sure on the best load out.

 

5x Deathwing squads w/ CML, CF, 3x Th/Sh

Would you consider this optimum load out for footsloging DW?

 

No claws in any squad? I suppose with the logic above, if anything the CML should have had the claws. But perhaps you can elaborate on your chosen load out for said unit? You frown upon squads of 5x TH/SS?

I don't frown on them per say. THSS terminators are still one of the premier assault units in 40k, despite all the newer codexes. They lay a beatdown on paladins, nob bikers, pretty much everything except units that can lay massive amounts of wounds on them (some form of horde).

 

My argument is that the fire support you NEED in a deathwing army should be tank focused, specifically transport focused, to put your enemy on the same footing at you. So the ability to deal with horde-like opponents is limited. I run my deathwing as 2xTHSS, cml/pf/sb, cf/sb, pf/sb. The 2 THSS give me resiliance against melta, plasma, lascannon fire etc. (much of which will actually be focused on my speeders and predators anyway), while I retain some storm bolter fire. it isn't much but it makes a bit of a difference. Both arguments (all THSS, mix) are valid, IMO. You don't see many hordes on the competitive circuit any more, which is why THSS is still a very good option.

 

I will say, though, I run my apothecary squad with 3-4 THSS and 1-2 TLC because they end up going in hot, where shooting is an option for 1 turn only.

 

If you want claws, it isn't a bad option. I've seen claws be successful (3 THSS, 2 claws, 1 cyclone). It's better coming out of a land raider. But land raiders are better in 2s or 3s. single raider + command squad of doom is a brick that will get stopped in its tracks. The setup you have for your DW squads is perfectly fine, imo. As long as you have a couple of THSS, you can footslog and be golden.

 

I can say, with that list I linked, I missed the LS Tyhoons, and I'm considering the list you (Droma's) started with in this thread.

 

Also, am I wrong or does that list add up to like 1870?

 

Belial - 130

Banner + apoth - 55

 

5x DW - cml, cf - 240x5 (1200)

3x typhoon/mm speeder - 225

2x ac/lc pred - 260

1870

 

Droma, why didn't I pick this up earlier??

drop the banner. It's a nice to have rather than a must have. that's a nice 1850. for 1750, drop a speeder and your chainfists.

Typhoons are outstanding. Efficient fire support is what Deathwing lack. Typhoons are very efficient.

 

As to the other list you ran...vindicators are a bad choice. I'm sorry, I know people love them, but they have a 24 inch range, they have poor side armour, so are easily silenced (it's not had to get a side armour shot and shake it every turn. This is what we do with our typhoons, so why assume other people won't do it? also, 1 weapon destroyed result renders it ineffective for the rest of the game except as a contester) and they scatter, so are unreliable anti tank. The auto/las predator is far superior for a deathwing army (for a greenwing, vindicators are arguable, but i still go pred every time).

 

The list at the start of the thread is tier 2 competitive, imo. It's very good. the other option at 1850 is 6 DW squads and 3 typhoons. Helps with objectives more, and you have better CC ability but you lack some fire support and have to be a bit more aggressive with your termis, which you can afford to do, as you have 30 of them.

 

 

In smaller point games (1k points), would having only 2 squads of DW with plenty of support be a bad thing? Or would 3 squads and a dread or predator be the best route?

 

hmmm.......my first ever tournament with DW was 1000 points. I ran 3 squads of DW with 2 typhoons (no apothecary, no banner). It did pretty well. I took 2nd out of 30.

 

In my playtesting, I ran with 2 squads and tried a mix of support (3 typhoons and 1 ac/hb pred, 2 typhoons and 2 ac/las pred). The firepower at that points level was impressive, but i struggled in objective games. Not necessarily capture and control (2 objectives), because I could contest last turn, but multiple objectives were a real problem. They only thing you can do is playtest and get comfortable.

[skink]

In smaller point games (1k points), would having only 2 squads of DW with plenty of support be a bad thing? Or would 3 squads and a dread or predator be the best route?

 

hmmm.......my first ever tournament with DW was 1000 points. I ran 3 squads of DW with 2 typhoons (no apothecary, no banner). It did pretty well. I took 2nd out of 30.

 

I never lost a game with this list, to the extent that I stopped using it as I was beginning to feel bad.

[riddles]

really? because it falls down to armies that perform exceptionally well at that level

- horde orks

- horde guard

- massed grey hunter spam

[skink]

really? because it falls down to armies that perform exceptionally well at that level

- horde orks

- horde guard

- massed grey hunter spam

 

Horde Orks were hard, but I only played them once and they didn't have a KFF so they died in droves on the way in.

 

Grey hunters were never a problem; I suppose they were always played too aggressively and out of cover as I just smashed them with kraks and they folded easily enough. And I guess they were never truely spammed; usually diluted with Terminator Wolf Guard.

 

Never played horde IG so can't comment.

 

I suppose it's worth mentioning that tournaments aren't prevalent around here (I guess the calibre of play is only 'ok' according to the internet) so these were pick up fun games; that being the reason I stopped running it. Just wanted to support the comment that Belial with 3 DW and 2 Typhoons is very strong!