Taking down Nids with Space Wolves

[VonMerrick]

Years ago in the third edition I had a very successfull space wolf army so as I've gotten back into this hobby after years away I naturally went back to my favs and have started over creating a 1K-1500 point list as a starter.

 

Never really having played Nids before, I just finished a game that was going very well for me until my opponent's Mawloc and Trigon Prime arrived on the same turn.

 

So what are the most effective ways a space wolf force can avoid the Mawloc's AP2 burrowing attack and still have the pop to take out three MCs at 1000 points?

 

I was able to avoid his Hive Tyrant for the whole game and took it down with concentrated fire. The Trygon Prime and the Mawloc arrived in turn two via deep strike and thats where my plans began to unravel a bit.

 

My Rune Priest was next to unless as there was nothing in his psychic range for Murderous Hurricane or Jaws of the World Wolf until the Long Fangs and he were hit with a Mawloc deep striking and taking multiple AP2 his. The trygon prime's shadow of the Warp rendered his psychic powers unless as I keep failing having to use 3D6 instead of two.

 

So please provide me with some advice on handling three Monsterous Creatures at this low points level.

[DarkGuard]

Multiple Long Fangs. Krak missile spam is horrible against MCs, 2s to wound, no save, likely no cover. Krak missiles also ID Warriors while frag missiles takes out the lil critters.

 

The Mawloc is a worry, I can't remember if it hits the top levels of buildings though, so that could be worth looking into, not sure though. However, once it's survived it sucks in CC, so have something decent on standby for CC, or a melta unit, or another Long Fangs unit, spread them out and he can only hit one while having to stand around looking stupid for a while.

 

The Prime, again, krak missiles and melta would be the best way to take it down, especially as if it deep strikes all it can do is shoot or run, it can't assault.

 

It seems quite a lot of Nid players are running 3 MCs at 1000pts recently, but seriously krak missile spam will tend to do the trick, that Mawloc will only be able to take out one unit before going down.

[VonMerrick]

Thanks. We're both getting back in after leaving the hobby for a while. We're building our forces back up so we're starting small. Since he purchased all the MCs he decided to field them all at once to see what each could do first hand.

[spartan249]

Space Wolves have the most capacity for high strength low ap shots per unit taken & per point spent... anywhere. Grey Hunters get 2 Plasma guns for 10 points (plasma pistol for 15 additional), and that's definitely more then enough to take on any sort of MC that you need.

 

30 Grey Hunters with Plasmas in Rhinos, 2 Long Fang squads with your choice selection of weapons (I'd suggest either Missiles if you're on a budget or Lascannons preferrably. +1 strength and -1 ap can make a huge difference against many targets), and Rune Priest with assorted powers that you want. 995 points on the dot, and plenty of killy nonsense to unleash on your opponent with the added bonus of psychic protection. You can also laugh at the mawloc as it scratches at the armor of the Rhino.

[Mysticaria]

Mawloc only hits the bottom floor, it scatters, and you get a cover save from it. So, just go into cover, in a building if able, and spread out as much as possible. Neither of those monsters have frag grenades, so even when they do assault you on turn 2 they'll at least go on initiative 1.

 

Like Darkguard said, missiles are the answer. That and focus fire. Don't shoot two MCs halfway dead. I'd recommend shooting the Trygon first since it's much better in CC than the Mawloc.

 

Nids like to play MCs at 1,000 points since it's a point level that MCs can do well. Once you start getting into higher points levels the Nidzilla doesn't really work anymore. It's one of the main competative builds they have. Just be glad he didn't run something like:

 

HQ - Tervigon - 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Heavy - Trygon - 200

Heavy - Trygon - 200

 

-Heath

[VonMerrick]

Thanks. Yes, I'm glad he doesn't play that list, although he might as the Tervigon is now available as a model.

 

I think the match turned out to showcase how I

 

A: fail to realize that Genestealers infiltrate and move through cover

 

B: Not used to Land Speeders. I have two typhoons which offensively were awesome. The idiot that I am didn't take into account the fleet movement of the genestealers and got caught in assault. The rending claws did a number on the armor. That was my failing.

 

Oh and not knowing the Mawloc rules, when he rolls a dead on hit on the scatter my Long Fangs really got hit hard as they were on a hill top and not in cover.

[DarkGuard]

Nids like to play MCs at 1,000 points since it's a point level that MCs can do well. Once you start getting into higher points levels the Nidzilla doesn't really work anymore. It's one of the main competative builds they have. Just be glad he didn't run something like:

 

HQ - Tervigon - 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Heavy - Trygon - 200

Heavy - Trygon - 200

 

-Heath

 

So am I, that list's illegal, you have to take a minimum of 10 Gaunts in a brood ;).

[Mysticaria]

Nids like to play MCs at 1,000 points since it's a point level that MCs can do well. Once you start getting into higher points levels the Nidzilla doesn't really work anymore. It's one of the main competative builds they have. Just be glad he didn't run something like:

 

HQ - Tervigon - 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Troop - 8 gants - 40

Troop - Tervigon 160-175

Heavy - Trygon - 200

Heavy - Trygon - 200

 

-Heath

 

So am I, that list's illegal, you have to take a minimum of 10 Gaunts in a brood -_-.

haha. yeah. Old codex in my head. Still works though. :lol:

 

HQ - Tervigon - 165

Troop - 11 gants - 55

Troop - Tervigon 165

Troop - 10 gants - 50

Troop - Tervigon 165

Heavy - Trygon - 200

Heavy - Trygon - 200

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

I'd be more than happy to face that list, Tervigon's don't have catalyst, don't pass on abilities to gaunts so gaunts can't open up transports, threaten units meaningfully etc. So once you take down the Trygons, he's got a slow moving, ineffectual list that only really spawn lots of gaunts. Stay in your transport, kill the Tervigons which will find it hard to give cover and can't grant FnP on themselves, and then wipe up the gaunts.

 

Seriously, krak missile spam is the way to go against Nids :P.

[Mysticaria]

I'd be more than happy to face that list, Tervigon's don't have catalyst, don't pass on abilities to gaunts so gaunts can't open up transports, threaten units meaningfully etc. So once you take down the Trygons, he's got a slow moving, ineffectual list that only really spawn lots of gaunts. Stay in your transport, kill the Tervigons which will find it hard to give cover and can't grant FnP on themselves, and then wipe up the gaunts.

 

Seriously, krak missile spam is the way to go against Nids :P.

Yeah, honestly if I was trying to make it really 'Ard' I'd drop the second squad of gants, take the tervigon as an HQ, and buy catalyst on all 3 Tervigons. Is that better to face? Remember, you are playing at 1,000 points... how many missiles do you have anyway? And with monsters getting 6 wounds each and FNP it will be a challenge to kill them before they get close.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

That would be a harder army to face. As for amount of missiles, I reckon you can easily fit in 10 or 12 in a C:SM list at 1000pts, it depends on what else you're using.

 

For Space Wolves I'd therefore imagine it'd be the same, especially as you can use CML Wolf Guard and join them to the Long Fangs, and have split fire.

 

If all those Tervigons had Catalyst though it would be a lot nastier to kill them, all, but outside the Trygons you haven't got much killing power, that's why Nidzilla lists still aren't that amazing at 1000pts IMO. Armies can still pack a lot of missiles, enough to knock out an MC a turn, while Termagants aren't that damaging, especially if they can't get you out of transports.

[Mysticaria]

Darkguard, I think you might be undervaluing MCs a little in such low-point games.

 

Even if we assume the MEQ army can fit 12 missiles into a 1,000 point army (assuming max long fangs here?), that's only 8 hits on average per turn and less than one MC dead per turn (assuming either a FNP or a cover save is up and running). Even with 2 turns of shooting (which is not guaranteed due to fleet and termagant spawning) using focus fire (assuming there is no terrain to hide behind) that's only 1 MC that is going to be dead before they start getting to assault. At that point, even a tervigon is going to do some damage in combat (one can win/draw combat against long fangs and two can even put some hurt on grey hunters). If the MCs start hitting MEQ lines and there are 3-4 of them still around (plus 2-4 squads of gants) that could get dangerous fast. It gets even worse in an objective game since the Nids will have gant squads that are probably being completely ignored, and the 5 MCs are going to have to be dealt with before even trying to clear out the other scoring units.

 

Don't forget, if the SW army is rolling with vehicles and wolf guard it's going to be even harder to muster 12 missiles per turn. After all, they still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops so that's already about half the army and not even a single missile yet. And, even though gants aren't a threat to vehicles (with exception of shooting rear armor) the MCs are all going to get 2d6 to pen versus rear armor (need a 5+ to glance and 6+ to pen on 2 dice is pretty good) and they are going to get to re-roll some or all of their misses due to scything talons.

 

Anyway, not trying to argue that it's an unbeatable matchup, or that nidzilla is unstoppable, but my point is... 5 MCs with 30 wounds, T6, 3+ save, and FNP is not exactly a "cake" matchup in a 1k game. That's a really low point level and there is only so much anti-MC stuff that can be fit into an all-comer list. Without tailoring... what is the last 1k all-comer list that you played? How many missiles did it have? I'll post mine if you are interested; I know I'd have problems since I have 2x vindicators (I love them in 1k game, but not the best weapon against MCs).

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

I cannot condone a Long Fang Missle spam. What it does is invite tactical stagnation, as your game plan is just stand there and shoot. Whilst it can work wonders and thrash some lists, it often struggles against others.

 

If your opponent uses multiple Mycetic Spores with creatures with a 2+ save, Genestealers and other fast moving beasties, and maybe a big old fast moving Trygon or Tyrant, you're done for because you can't counter.

 

Typhoons are good as are mobile, an anchor unit of Long Fangs for funsies and other elements that can counter attack.

[DarkGuard]

Myst, last 1000pts lists I made, for all comers is:

 

3rd Company:

Libby w/ Null Zone and Gate = 100pts

8 Sternguard w/ heavy flamer, 3x combi-meltas, Rhino w/ dozer blade = 265pts

10 Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta, meltagun, meltabombs, plasma cannon, Rhino = 230pts

10 Tactical Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, multi-melta, Rhino = 225pts

Typhoon = 90pts

Typhoon = 90pts

 

So not that many missiles, 4 from this list, although every unit is capable of handling MCs, the Tactical squads with melta and plasma, the Sternguard with hellfire. Note this is an all comers list in a metagame with hardly any MC spam, instead I face a lot of Marines.

 

And then my silly 1st and 10th list that I took with me last time I played:

Terminator Libby w/ storm shield, Null Zone and Gate = 140pts

10 Terminators w/ 2x CMLs, 2x chainfists = 470pts

5 Scouts w/ 4 snipers, 1 missile launcher, camo cloaks = 100pts

5 Scouts w/ 4 CCWs+BPs, 1 combi-melta, 1 power fist = 110pts

Typhoon = 90pts

Typhoon = 90pts

 

Same metagame, more missiles in this list thanks to the Terminators, again, every unit can cope with an MC if needed, but that's just coincidence. I thought I'd include this one as this was the last 1000pts list I took to an all comers game, although I played 1750, not 1000. The first list, however, is my primary army so that's why I included that.

 

So your point is made, in an all comers army Marine armies can only really get about 4-6 missiles, depending on choices they make. The amount I named had to do with a tailored one, referencing a list I helped with back in the army list forum, of course I wouldn't run a tailored list but rather enjoy the challenge.

 

The thing is, Tervigons, while MCs, aren't great combatants, and it'd be better for a mass Termagant charge to take care of things, although the Tervigons would be decent at flipping tanks if they got that far. The Nidzilla list has most of it's damage dealing in the Trygons. I'm not saying the list as a whole is a cake walk, but should you take out the Trygons early before they do damage then you've got a very good chance of winning, the rest that's remaining is weak and you can take your time killing them. And you won't have to face an endless swarm of Termagants, those Tervigons will roll a double at one time 46% chance each time they spawn I believe.

 

Of course, with FnP being thrown about, particular on those Trygons, it'll be hard to defeat them before they hit, as a Marine player you need to try and herd them into a good place for them to hit so you can take them out.

 

You're right though, in objective games this will be difficult, but in KP games it's advantage to the Marines, as the Tervigons really don't want to spawn as they make more KPs.

 

So a Nidzilla list is hard, and while the supportive element can damage, the damage it can do is a lot less than those offensive elements, so there's your target priority. I suppose you just have to hope you get enough time to down those Trygons etc. It's like my Terminator list, it's great against most balanced lists and obviously lists that don't have the weapons to deal with it, but if you run across a list that is well equipped for it (like when I played my friend with two Vindicators, TL-meltas and Null Zone), it will struggle and most likely lose.

[Mysticaria]

Darkguard,

I fully endorse your "1st and 10th" list. That has to be the coolest 1K army ever. Anyway, missiles are good and powerfists are good. Tactical Terminators are a pretty good answer to Tervigons. They don't really want to face a Trygon at full srength, but against a Tervigon or two they should do well. Worst case scenario they can hide in terrain and shoot missiles... the Trygon doesn't have grenades so it will go simultaneously with power fists at I1.

 

Idaho,

Nids can't drop in any 2+ saves thankfully. The only models that can take a 2+ are the Tyrannofex and the Hive Tyrant without wings, and neither of them can deep strike. Longfang "spam" might not be the best, but I think the unit is too good of a deal not to take one or two of them. Missiles are king against nids, and are plenty decent against many other armies. For the price, it's hard not to think about them as an option.

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

I assumed Carnifex could get a 2+ or Hive Tyrants could take Mycetic Spores. Regardless, the amount of Tyranid tricks for reaching static infantry can render Long Fangs sitting ducks.

 

Still, Long Fangs are still handy of course. I just wouldn't build a list's capacity to deal with dangerous foes around just Long Fangs with Grey Hunters as a reserve.

[DarkGuard]

Actually Idaho, you just made me remember a good piece of advise. Stay in cover. Most Nids don't have grenades, off the top of my head Lictors and Carnifexen do, but that's all. After that are lash whips of course, which you bring you down to I1, so you strike simultaneously, and Warriors (of all kinds), Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard and Venomthropes are the beasties with access to these. What this means is that a lot of the Nid army, including units such as Raveners and Genestealers, typically the units that can quickly threaten a back line, have no cover. And with most everything apart from MCs having rather poor armour saves, this can be vital. Even Stealers think twice about assaulting into cover when they know they may lose a good amount of them.

 

So stay in cover, because that is seriously the Nid Achilles heel.

[VonMerrick]

So how Does the Mawloc not reach units in its ground attack? Can't it chose the floor it hits with the template?

[Captain Idaho]

Definitely, cover enables infantry to put a decent amount of wounds on Genestealers when they assault. However, don't stick Long Fangs in cover and expect them to repell an attack or expect Grey Hunters to kill a Monstrous Creature. Just won't happen.

 

What cover will enable you to do is cull smaller, weakened units, or weaken them further. Unless you have a decent assault unit of course. I had 3 Honour Guard and a Master take on 19 Genestealers once. They all died eventually, but there were only a few Genestealers left after!

[AyanamiKun]

I killed three groups of genestealers yesterday with my Whirlwind. One died every round ... :P