So, tell me about Khan.

[SMcaptainAurelius]

Hi all,

 

Long time 40k fan who has been lurking on the forums for a week or so, I've had an extended break from 40k and am looking to get back into the swing of it. In the past I have started armies and run out of steam so this time I'm looking to do something with a bit of a story (I'm a fluff merchant at heart). I think it was the upcoming Games Day model that touched a nerve so now I'm hooked.

 

Anyway blah blah blah... Life story over. The premise is this, I would like to do a White Scars army - without bikes. Probably with Khan. His fluff is awesome! A white scars kill team, a bit like the dudes in the Little Horus short story. EPIC!

 

So talk to me, can you build an army around Outflank? Is Khan minus Moondrakken like a terminator with no helmet? Do white sacrs tacticals look silly?

 

The points limit will be 1500 or 1750 I'm not sure which is the new black in my "meta". My natural play style is fire and manouvre. More like fire for the first two turns then set up some rapid fire waves. Therefore I don't mind static as I would like to dominate the 48" - 36" corridor and then the 12" lanes. I'm quite open minded about unit choices.

 

Here are my thoughts so far:

 

- Khan gives a unit furious charge and hit and run, therefore a power weapon based assault force would make the most of this, so either vanguard or assault terminators with lightening claws, also in the mix are a big sternguard squad, assault marines and cc scouts in a land raider redeemer (don't forget the outflank).

 

- Small sternguard squads with dual lascannons and plasma cannons will be key to domiating the early game exchanges, possibly in rhinos.

 

- You could almost build a "firefight wave" force around a command squad with four plasma guns, chuck in a tactical and maybe some assault marines sans jump packs as a speed bump and you have a nice force for midgame midfield pushes.

 

- Librarians with null zone are cool.

 

- A couple of min maxed missile devastator squads are pushing for a starting spot. What's the alternative? Typhoons? Combi-preds? Rifleman dreads?

 

- Scouts. CC scouts in Storms, with melta maybe two of them (double cheeky cerberus launchers) to clear the standard 'home' objective squad most opponents plonk down.

 

So here I am, looking to create a mostly power armoured infantry and transport force in white scars livery. So tell me does it work with Khan? I think I'm using him just for his story and perhaps should be building the list around him with loadsa bikes. I could swap him out for a normal captain of course. Someone tell me if I'm on the right track and I'll post a draft list I just need to know whether I could win any games with this concept because I think I would struggle to paint a rubbish army. Not saying I'm a win at all cost kind of guy but I can't seem to paint below my best and would put a whole lot of love into these guys.

 

So Khan in a no bike army... Yay or nay?

[DarkGuard]

It can certainly work, especially as the passengers grant outflank to their dedicated transports, so you can have outflanking Land Raiders, Assault Terminators, Sternguard, and Rhinos in Tactical squads hitting the enemy unexpectedly.

 

However, do remember that with Outflank you have a 2/3 chance of the table edge you want, so be prepared to get the bad table edge from time to time. Also, your army will arrive piecemeal. Therefore, you'll need to make sure each unit can handle itself, which can be difficult with Tactical Marines.

 

The rest of the stuff you're talking about seems like it could work as well, it'll be up to you whether you only want half your force or so outflanking, or a full null-deployment list, maybe some stuff in drop pods to alpha strike the enemy taking away their tanks before the outflanking forces arrive.

 

Basically, from experience, when it works it works great, when it doesn't it flops, you're leaving a lot to chance from dice rolls with this list.

[ShinyRhino]

Folks who run Kor'sarro Khan off his bike like to cram him into a Land Raider of any type alongside as many Assault Terminators as you can fit. The majority of the Terminators tend to have lightning claws, to capitalize on the Furious Charge bonuses. A couple hammer/shield as insurance.

 

Outflanking is incredibly fun to play, but unreliable as DarkGuard said. Nothing gets into your opponent's head more than the possibility to have outflanking units pop in when he's vulnerable. If you're going second, he has to anticipate your options and deploy accordingly. You can then counter by not outflanking at all, and messing with his head.

 

It's kind of like playing a Genestealer-heavy Nid army. You never know where they'll pop up!

[greatcrusade08]

i use khan with cassius and ten close combat scouts outflanking.

yes they run the risk of coming on the wrong side, but youd be surprised what this unit can do.

how many times i hear: "pfft they are just scouts" and then i charge with almost 40 S5 attacks at I5 with rerolls to hit..

hit and run is also very nice, meaning you can capitalise on those re-rolls and furious charge

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A way to alleviate some of the Reserve rolling fears in a podding or, in this case, outflanking list is to take Tigurius for his reroll to Reserve rolls. He's expensive points-wise and suffers from a lot of the same issues that come with normal Libbies -- no integral I save, two wounds, etc -- but if you stick with using his support powers like Null Zone or Force Shield, you should be alright.

[SMcaptainAurelius]

Thanks for your input brothers!

 

Well you have all been great at nudging me in the right direction.

I had not thought about pairing special characters in an army before but why not? These days it's cool to make up your own fluff and do counts as so I won't have that sense of special character guilt I used to have with them. Deus you make a good point with Tigurius. What I'll probably do is create a list with one bad boy outflanking unit, that way all the marines can sit back blowing transports out of the sky while I wait for big chops to come on mid game and roll over something. Tigger is probably better is a total outflank force. Darkguard and ShinyRhino's comments have tempered my enthusiam for a whole army in reserve force as it sounds a touch random. I like the idea of mind games though!

 

greatcrusade08 Khan,Cassius, CC Scouts and Landraider I like! Will ponder the benefits of their scoring versus the assault terminators smash face potential. Very interesting though. What's this? A scout tactica? Good work sir.

 

Expect a list tomorrow, I've just pinged Bannus to see if it's cool to pop it in here.

[DarkGuard]

Darkguard and ShinyRhino's comments have tempered my enthusiam for a whole army in reserve force as it sounds a touch random. I like the idea of mind games though!

 

I didn't mean to temper your enthusiasm, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that there are flaws in an Outflank list that you can work around, all you need is a plan and a bit of luck.

[SMcaptainAurelius]

No worries dude. :woot: I think the tactics you chose to employ should shape your unit selection as much as the units should shape tactics. And I like theorising so keep your thoughts coming, you've been spot on so far.

 

Therefore I would rather play a list that could sit back and dominate the early exchanges as I mentioned in the OP with the option to roll forward later. This means I'll be looking at small sternguard heavy weapons squads and landspeeder typhoons who want to be on the board from turn one. If I was going for a total outflank force I would be leaning towards full sternguard squads in rhinos or drop pod alpha squads both with heavy flamers and combi meltas falling out their pockets, and probably tornado pattern speeders. Both options are cool, the second is probably more white scars but then you are going down the route of bike squads. And I like the first option, that is where I'm most comfortable (devastator at heart!)

 

I'm still sorting the details out but if I can revert to type and play the long game with a tasty unit held back to seize the initiative then great. I'm thinking scouts or landraider too as it would be a shame not to use Khan's rules.

Then again if I give everything rhinos I still have the choice (Joke alert...) to go full retard. I mean full outflank (obviously).

As you can tell I'm still musing, I'll post a list up tomorrow avo.

 

Scouts in a landraider? How am I going to explain that one to my tactical marines?!

[spartan249]

The Land Raider I suggest for use in this type of army is the LR Phobos pattern. Why? For starters, Outflanking is, as described earlier, has an inherently random nature that ensures that the LR won't show up where you need it when you need it all the time. The LR Crusader and Redeemer suffer the most from this setback because they are extremely short ranged weapon platforms and can not affect the course of a battle from stand-off range (where you will most likely be should that bad outflank happen). The LR Phobos' Lascannons ensure that, even given a meh outflank result, the Phobos has a say in the battle no matter what happens.

 

In addition to that, the LR phobos can also work deployed with the bulk of your force. The other two LRs have very little to contribute at stand-off range because of the limited range and strength of the onboard weapons. The LR Phobos' Lascannons provide hitting power while simultaneously providing counter-assault capability with the assault unit of your choice.

 

Khan makes for a mean force multiplier in assault, and he can definitely work with just about any assault unit in C:SM. Go forward with this concept, I know that it'll work decently well in many situations.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

With this whole Scouts in an LR idea, I have a question. I thought that Outflanking was only applied to dedicated transports. If that conception is correct, then trying this idea with CC Scouts won't work because they can't come off the board edges; thus why Khan is normally attached to Terminators -- that Raider is dedicated for them.

[greatcrusade08]

With this whole Scouts in an LR idea, I have a question. I thought that Outflanking was only applied to dedicated transports. If that conception is correct, then trying this idea with CC Scouts won't work because they can't come off the board edges; thus why Khan is normally attached to Terminators -- that Raider is dedicated for them.

 

thats correct which is why i run my unit on foot.. if you want to outflank that raider youll need terminators to make it a dedicated choice.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Are Terminators the only ones with dedicated Land Raiders? I wanted to do a list with three or more Land Raiders using this tactic and was wondering if I could get more than two dedicated Land Raiders outflanking.

[ShinyRhino]

Are Terminators the only ones with dedicated Land Raiders? I wanted to do a list with three or more Land Raiders using this tactic and was wondering if I could get more than two dedicated Land Raiders outflanking.

 

Yes, Terminators are theonly units in the regualr Marine codex who can get a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport. It's important to note that only ONE squad of each Terminator type can take the LR as a dedicated transport. So, one unit of regular Terminators can take one LR as a dedicated transport, and then one unit of Assault Terminators can take another LR as a dedicated transport. The rest of the Terminators in your army are out of luck, and will have to ride in a Heavy Support choice Land Raider.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Are Terminators the only ones with dedicated Land Raiders? I wanted to do a list with three or more Land Raiders using this tactic and was wondering if I could get more than two dedicated Land Raiders outflanking.

 

Yes, Terminators are theonly units in the regualr Marine codex who can get a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport. It's important to note that only ONE squad of each Terminator type can take the LR as a dedicated transport. So, one unit of regular Terminators can take one LR as a dedicated transport, and then one unit of Assault Terminators can take another LR as a dedicated transport. The rest of the Terminators in your army are out of luck, and will have to ride in a Heavy Support choice Land Raider.

Thought so. Well I don't think I will use more that 3 Land Raiders then. One regular one with a Tactical squad sitting in it on an objective. Will be interesting to see if I could pull this list off. More on the list when I get it done and refined.

[DarkGuard]

Terminators are the only unit in the Space Marine Codex with dedicated Land Raiders. Furthermore, only one unit of Tactical Terminators and one unit of Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider, ie. you can't have two units of Hammernators with dedicated LRs.

[Tinnock]

Furthermore, only one unit of Tactical Terminators and one unit of Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider, ie. you can't have two units of Hammernators with dedicated LRs.

 

wait what? where does it say this...

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Furthermore, only one unit of Tactical Terminators and one unit of Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider, ie. you can't have two units of Hammernators with dedicated LRs.

 

wait what? where does it say this...

Look in the Terminators entry in the Army List section and look at the part about Dedicated Transports.

[DarkGuard]

Furthermore, only one unit of Tactical Terminators and one unit of Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider, ie. you can't have two units of Hammernators with dedicated LRs.

 

wait what? where does it say this...

Look in the Terminators entry in the Army List section and look at the part about Dedicated Transports.

 

What he said, lesser known rule that normally doesn't come into effect because of the cost of Terminators and LRs. If one did want to run two squads of Hammernators in LRs then one of them would have to be from Heavy Support.