Thunderfire Cannons vs Necron Scarabs

[Dusktiger]

So, i have a question i was wondering on clarification on.

 

A Thunderfire Cannon fires at a unit of Necron Scarab bases.

Because of their rules, the scarabs treat each wound taken as 2 wounds, because they are vulnerable to templates.

They are also Toughness 3.

So far, i've always had the necron player hide his Scarabs in cover because of this, so I've utilized the Str 5 Airburst shell, which removes Cover Saves, making him take 2 wounds for every 1 i successfully cause.

 

My question regards to when he's 'not' in cover, and i use the Str 6 Surface detonation shell. That's a Double Toughness wound for Scarabs, which means Instant Death to a base; but if they're supposed to treat 1 wound as 2 because its a template weapon, does that mean TWO bases are removed? or just the one?

[greatcrusade08]

two bases would be removed as your dealing ID wounds doubled due to blast templates.. since all scarabs are the same they cannot play wound allocation shenanigans to avoid this.

[chromedog]

^What he said.

 

S6 blasts on T3 vulnerable to blasts means two wounds per base that become ID due to the S/T issues (so two bases per wound).

[Morollan]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

[ShinyRhino]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

 

Don't forget that Scarabs have a +1 bonus to their cover save due to the Swarms rule.

[Morollan]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

 

Don't forget that Scarabs have a +1 bonus to their cover save due to the Swarms rule.

 

Good point. That makes it less of a clear choice. Using airburst you will wound on a 2+ with no save but only cause 2 wounds per hit. With the surface detonation you still wound on a 2+ they get a 3+ cover save but you remove a whole base for each unsaved wound. Tricky choice but I'd say the airburst is probably slightly better.

[DarkGuard]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

 

Don't forget that Scarabs have a +1 bonus to their cover save due to the Swarms rule.

 

Good point. That makes it less of a clear choice. Using airburst you will wound on a 2+ with no save but only cause 2 wounds per hit. With the surface detonation you still wound on a 2+ they get a 3+ cover save but you remove a whole base for each unsaved wound. Tricky choice but I'd say the airburst is probably slightly better.

 

Wouldn't it be a whole 2 bases for each unsaved wound from surface detonation as already elaborated on earlier in this thread?

[Morollan]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

 

Don't forget that Scarabs have a +1 bonus to their cover save due to the Swarms rule.

 

Good point. That makes it less of a clear choice. Using airburst you will wound on a 2+ with no save but only cause 2 wounds per hit. With the surface detonation you still wound on a 2+ they get a 3+ cover save but you remove a whole base for each unsaved wound. Tricky choice but I'd say the airburst is probably slightly better.

 

Wouldn't it be a whole 2 bases for each unsaved wound from surface detonation as already elaborated on earlier in this thread?

 

Yes, you're quite right. Let's say there are 4 bases under the blast.

 

Airburst: 4 hits = 3.33 wounds inflicted = 1 base removed

Surface Detonation: 4 hits = 3.33 wounds = 1.11 unsaved wounds = 2.22 wounds inflicted = 2 bases removed

 

So surface detonation seems better.

[Ming]

Stop making me wish I'd bought that TFC before the FLGS ran out of them....

[Jacinda]

This came up in other forms shortly after the necrons got their new codex. If you want to see some differing (and sometimes passionantly different) opinions, you could try looking back to some October posts.

 

If I remember correctly, we agreed on the following for Instant Death from template weapons versus swarms.

 

1. Place the template or blast marker and count the number of hits.

2. Roll to wound for each hit.

3. Allocate wounds -- this will almost always be all wounds go to the one unit but stranger things have happened in 40K.

4. For each allocation group:

- 4a. Roll any saves allowed.

- 4b. Double the number of unsaved wounds.

- 4c. Remove one model for each wound starting with unwounded models first.

 

Note that it is possible and even likely that you will remove more models than were under the template originally.

[greatcrusade08]

i use two of them, and im my one big game vs necrons they won me it... JUST!

i was 3 x 20 warriors with lord and crpytek with veil (jumpy necrons), monolith 3 x6 scarabs and a Ctan (i think, cant remember if there was anything else)

my t-fires were amazing, the scarabs went down like a granny on ice and really helped manage those large blobs of warriors

 

the trcik to beating warrior blobs is concentrated fire, kill one group before moving onto the next, the t-fires were dropping 7-10 each per turn (of course some got back up again

[Seahawk]

They included it in the previous edition's FAQ, I'd like to say, because of me. I asked it out on various forums, got nerd rage against me, then proved it was the way to do it. Then magically, soon after it came out in a FAQ backing me up :lol:.

 

Naturally, they neglected to include it in this FAQ, despite not changing the BRB wording.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The 4+ cover save effectively removes the doubling effect in comparison to the airburst shell but you will be killing a whole base for each remaining hit rather than just inflicting 2 wounds.

 

Don't forget that Scarabs have a +1 bonus to their cover save due to the Swarms rule.

 

Good point. That makes it less of a clear choice. Using airburst you will wound on a 2+ with no save but only cause 2 wounds per hit. With the surface detonation you still wound on a 2+ they get a 3+ cover save but you remove a whole base for each unsaved wound. Tricky choice but I'd say the airburst is probably slightly better.

 

Wouldn't it be a whole 2 bases for each unsaved wound from surface detonation as already elaborated on earlier in this thread?

 

Yes, you're quite right. Let's say there are 4 bases under the blast.

 

Airburst: 4 hits = 3.33 wounds inflicted = 1 base removed

Surface Detonation: 4 hits = 3.33 wounds = 1.11 unsaved wounds = 2.22 wounds inflicted = 2 bases removed

 

So surface detonation seems better.

 

air burst is still a blast is it not? You forogot to double the wounds from the airburst.

 

esentialy each wound that gets through on air burst takes out 2 wounds

and each wound that makes it through from surface det takes out 6 wounds (2 bases worth)

 

but surface det afords them a 3+ save. wich reduces the effectiveness to 1/3. This esentialy makes them both statisticaly equal (6=2, same as the air burst). esentialy the surface detination will be able to provide with more extreme values as if he fails 3 saves, thats 6 bases or 18 wounds worth, but of course its also not hard at all to make 3 or 4 3+ saves, which would result in no damage at all. And the air burst will provide a more steady, and predictable damage output (at about 6 total wounds in your above example). Esentialy if you are in a case were you NEED those scarabs gone now, go with the higher risk, higher reward surface det, if you just need them softened up, go with the safer air burst.

[Grey Mage]

While strategy is wonderful, its not rules- so Im kicking this over to tactica.

 

And.... energize.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've been in this situation before. While the Scarabs were in the trees, I airbursted them. Put some wounds on a couple, a couple bases were removed. As soon as they broke cover and started their movement to contact across open ground was when I went all open season on them with the surface det rounds and a plasma cannon. Something like twelve bases of scarabs died in one round of shooting.