Indendepent Characters and Morale Tests

[Dukal]

We has a gaming situation at the local gaming store last night, and I was wondering if I could get any input on how we should rule it.

 

My friend was playing Orks, and he had attached a Warboss to his Snikrot Kommando squad and come in on his opponents side of the board. His opponent, another friend of mine playing Tau, proceeded to kill ever member of the squad except the Warboss. There was a debate as to whether the Warboss was forced to take a morale test at this point. The Warboss was attached to a squad that clearly lost more than 25% of its units, indicating that a morale check would normally be necessary. However, the Warboss is an IC, and the question was raised whether the IC was still a part of a squad that had been obliterated, and therefore had to take a morale test. Looking at the IC rules on pages 46 and 47, it indicates that an IC cannot leave a squad during the shooting or assault phases. This would indicated that the Warboss had to take the morale test. However, it is pretty clear he is not a part of the squad anymore as the squad is dead. So, ...

 

(1) Does an IC have to take a morale test after the squad he is attached to has been wiped out during the shooting phase?

(2) Does the IC count as being detached from the squad immediately after being out of coherency with the squad, or does this only happen during the movement phase?

(3)Does the IC have the opportunity to regroup at the beginning of the next movement phase, since he was a part of a squad which is below half-strength?

 

Thanks for the input.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

IIRC, once the squad is dead, the IC reverts to being an IC with no unit. So no test.

[Seahawk]

Remember, as long as that character is joined to the unit he is considered a part of that unit, ie just another member but with better stats/equipment (p.49).

 

1. Yes, he's still part of the unit for that turn, as a character can only leave during the Movement Phase.

2. As above, during the movement phase as described on page 48.

3. No. Since he's part of the squad still, and the squad is under 50%, he cannot rally (unless he has ATSKNF).

 

That's going by the rules. Now, if you want to houserule otherwise that's fine, but by the book this is how it goes. Since it almost never happens, it's quite comical to watch your heroic HQ...let everyone else fight while he goes back for tea.

[Something Wycked]

Basically what Seahawk said. But some of my thoughts:

(2) Does the IC count as being detached from the squad immediately after being out of coherency with the squad, or does this only happen during the movement phase?

We hashed this out when we talked about the "slingshot" maneuver. By the RAW, the IC remains a part of the unit until he has been able to move more than 2" away from the unit at the end of their movement phase. More logically, if there's no unit for the IC to be attached to, then the IC is no longer attached to the unit. However, when it comes to the morale test from shooting casualties, the IC is basically the last remnant of the squad that got shot up and so must take that test.

 

(3) Does the IC have the opportunity to regroup at the beginning of the next movement phase, since he was a part of a squad which is below half-strength?

On this one, I disagree with Seahawk. Sort of. By RAW, the IC is still part of the unit until the end of one of his movement phases, so he will not, by RAW, have the chance to regroup- just like Seahawk says. However, the unit no longer exists, and hasn't for a full game phase now (from the end of the opponent's shooting phase, through their assault phase, and now its the start of the player's movement phase). I wouldn't force an inability to regroup on lone ICs of my opponents in this situation.

[Dukal]

I appreciate the responses. I believe that Seahawk has the correct RAW interpretation, but there are still some inconsistencies. Regarding #3, there seems to be a bit of a carch-22 in the rules. According to the rule, the IC should be counted as detached from the unit at the ended of the movement phase, as he is more than 2' away from any member of the unit. This would allow him to make a morale test to regroup next turn, as his squad (1 IC) is above 50% strength. However, the IC rules also state that an IC cannot leave a unit that is falling back. Therefore, he could never leave the unit and could never test to regroup, which seems overly harsh but within RAW. I believe that the second interpretation is RAW.

 

Interagator-Chaplain, do you have a page number for that? I thought that was the correct rule as well, but I could not find anything in the BRB to support it.

[Ming]

On the next turn the IC could try to rally (if meeting the criteria to do so). If he/she passes, great...if not keeps running. If running, I'sd try to keep it running by following closely with a shiny rhino...

[Something Wycked]

...shiny rhino...

I see what you did there.

[DarkGuard]

With number 3, the Warboss would have been able to test for regroup as it is now on it's own and an IC. Had it still been with one member of the unit however, and falling back, then the test to regroup wouldn't have been possible as he's part of a unit under 50% strength.

[dswanick]

With number 3, the Warboss would have been able to test for regroup as it is now on it's own and an IC. Had it still been with one member of the unit however, and falling back, then the test to regroup wouldn't have been possible as he's part of a unit under 50% strength.

Do you have any rules quote to back this up? Because we still have the rules stating that the IC is part of a unit which gets shot to pieces, fails its morale test, falls back, and the IC can't "leave" a unit which is falling back (silly, yeah. but what about GW rules aren't?) which can't rally because it is below half strength.

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt have to leave the unit- there is no friendly unit within 2" for it to be a part of. There is no unit for it to leave.

 

We check at the time of shooting to see if they sustained 25% or more casualties- and find that they have, leaving just the warboss to make the check on his leadership (wich is obviously the best in the unit).

 

Then when we go to see if hes above 50% there is no unit for him to be joined to, its a new turn... nothing indicates the old unit exists. So we take him/it as it is and say "yep, 1/1 is more than .5/1, so he can attempt to regroup".

[dswanick]

It doesnt have to leave the unit- there is no friendly unit within 2" for it to be a part of. There is no unit for it to leave.

 

We check at the time of shooting to see if they sustained 25% or more casualties- and find that they have, leaving just the warboss to make the check on his leadership (wich is obviously the best in the unit).

 

Then when we go to see if hes above 50% there is no unit for him to be joined to, its a new turn... nothing indicates the old unit exists. So we take him/it as it is and say "yep, 1/1 is more than .5/1, so he can attempt to regroup".

While I don't disagree that that is how the rules should work - the rules break on the "an IC can't leave a falling back unit" rule as soon as he's no longer a part of the unit - how elses do you define "leaving". It's actually a similar concept to the "slingshot maneuver", resting on GW's not giving clear rules on how, when, and under what circumstances ICs join and leave units. :blink:

[DarkGuard]

With number 3, the Warboss would have been able to test for regroup as it is now on it's own and an IC. Had it still been with one member of the unit however, and falling back, then the test to regroup wouldn't have been possible as he's part of a unit under 50% strength.

Do you have any rules quote to back this up? Because we still have the rules stating that the IC is part of a unit which gets shot to pieces, fails its morale test, falls back, and the IC can't "leave" a unit which is falling back (silly, yeah. but what about GW rules aren't?) which can't rally because it is below half strength.

 

I could have sworn that was in the rules, but couldn't find it. Maybe it was 4th Ed.

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt have to leave the unit- there is no friendly unit within 2" for it to be a part of. There is no unit for it to leave.

 

We check at the time of shooting to see if they sustained 25% or more casualties- and find that they have, leaving just the warboss to make the check on his leadership (wich is obviously the best in the unit).

 

Then when we go to see if hes above 50% there is no unit for him to be joined to, its a new turn... nothing indicates the old unit exists. So we take him/it as it is and say "yep, 1/1 is more than .5/1, so he can attempt to regroup".

While I don't disagree that that is how the rules should work - the rules break on the "an IC can't leave a falling back unit" rule as soon as he's no longer a part of the unit - how elses do you define "leaving". It's actually a similar concept to the "slingshot maneuver", resting on GW's not giving clear rules on how, when, and under what circumstances ICs join and leave units. :(

I understand what your saying- but Im bypassing the issue using this logic:

 

He has already stopped being part of the unit at this point. For example, any special rules the unit had that they passed on to characters- such as fearless ironically enough- are already gone, and are gone immediately. He doesnt leave, he simply isnt part of the unit, because you cant be part of something that doesnt exist.

 

By the logic that he has to leave the unit later on all ICs would have to fall back any time their unit was destroyed during their next movement phase. Why? Because we check for wether or not hes joined a unit at the end of his movement, and at the beginning he is going to be sorely out of coherency since the nearest model is nowhere on the board.

[Seahawk]

He has already stopped being part of the unit at this point.

How? This is the crux of your argument, but it's not supported by the letter of the rules.

 

He doesnt leave, he simply isnt part of the unit, because you cant be part of something that doesnt exist.

That's the thing though, he is 100% a member, part and parcel, of the unit until he leaves it during his movement phase. He's the only one left, and he falls back for that reason.

[Morollan]

He has already stopped being part of the unit at this point.

How? This is the crux of your argument, but it's not supported by the letter of the rules.

 

He doesnt leave, he simply isnt part of the unit, because you cant be part of something that doesnt exist.

That's the thing though, he is 100% a member, part and parcel, of the unit until he leaves it during his movement phase. He's the only one left, and he falls back for that reason.

 

I can certainly see where Grey Mage is coming from. What unit is the IC a part of?

[Dukal]

I can also see Grey Mage's logical, but Seahawk is correct in that there is nothing in the rules to directly support his position. An IC is a member of any unit he joins until he leaves that unit. Leaving a unit is specifically done by being out of coherency with that unit at the end of the movement phase, per page 48 of the BRB. The IC is a part of a unit that consists of whatever unit he joined and himself, forming one bigger unit, until he leaves that unit. He is a part of that bigger unit until he leaves it as per the normal rules for ICs leaving a unit, unless there is some other rule which allows him to leave the unit. I wish that Grey Mage's interpretation were right, but I cannot find anything in the RAW to indicate that.

 

Since the IC continues to be a part of the unit, he has to take a morale test during the shooting phase, and fall back during the next movement phase (as his unit is under 50% strength). However, does he leave the unit at the end of the movement phase (as per the normal rule for being out of coherency), or is he forced to remain in the unit due to the restrictions on leaving a unit while falling back? There still has been no resolution to this question.

[dswanick]

Yeah, this silliness would be a non-issue if GW had simply added a bullet point - "An IC is considered to have left a unit as soon as soon as he is the Last Man Standing". It's also a non-issue any time you're playing a non-"Stelak" opponent.

[Seahawk]

I can certainly see where Grey Mage is coming from. What unit is the IC a part of?

So can I. He is a part of the unit he is joined to.

 

However, does he leave the unit at the end of the movement phase (as per the normal rule for being out of coherency), or is he forced to remain in the unit due to the restrictions on leaving a unit while falling back?

I answered it in my first post on this thread, but to reiterate:

 

"An independent character may not join or leave a unit while either he or the unit is locked in combat or falling back." (p.48)

 

As I said in a different forum, playing by the rules induces more wacky and entertaining results than to use "intent". Once one gets over the ill-fated (in this game) concept of "well that doesn't make sense", so much more fun and comedy ensue.

[falldown]

I found two cases in the Tau FAQ where ICs revert to IC status if their unit is destroyed. Don't know if this is relevant or not, but it could be used as precedence for Grey Mage.

 

Q. Can you please clarify the rules for independent characters and Bodyguard/Honour Guard for Tau characters, especially if they also select drones as part of their wargear. For example, do Tau characters with a

retinue always count as independent characters for the purposes of close combat, or do they not? (p32-33)

A. When selecting your army, if you buy a Tau character without a Bodyguard, he (and his drones) may join/leave units as a normal independent character. In combat, the character (and his drones) count as a separate unit. If, when selecting your army, you buy a Bodyguard for a Tau character, the Bodyguard and the character (and his drones) must be fielded as a unit, as described for Retinues on page 48 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In this case, the character (and his drones) cannot leave the Bodyguard unit. The character (and his drones) are members of the unit in all respects. Only if the entire Bodyguard is destroyed, the character returns to being an independent character, as described above. The same is true for Ethereals and their Honour Guard.

 

Q. Can Commander Shadowsun join another unit as long as she has her drones with her? Can she have a Bodyguard? (p46)

A. No and no. She is unique in the fact that she forms a separate unit with her three drones – she is the same as an upgrade character for them – and only if her three drones are destroyed does she become an independent character.

 

editted to cleanup FAQ

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Interagator-Chaplain, do you have a page number for that? I thought that was the correct rule as well, but I could not find anything in the BRB to support it.

Can't find it. Which is really ticking me off.

 

Might just misremember from an earlier edition.

[Dukal]

Seahawk, I really think I have to agree with your interpretation, though I am not certain that it how the writers intended it. The rule itself makes no except for voluntarily or involuntarily leaving a unit. That is pretty harsh.

[Morollan]

I think the Tau FAQ gives us a reasonable guide as to intent here and I would feel happy for someone in that situation to ignore the ridiculous consequences of a strict RAW interpretation in favour of common sense.

[timmytool]

while it does not say one way or another for this question it might affect it....

 

BRB FAQ p3 ph1 q7:

Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a

squad effect working out if a squad is below half

strength or not? (p48)

A: Independent Characters are not counted when

working out if a squad is below half strength or not.

The exception to this is if an Independent Character is

with a Retinue (in which case he is counted when

working out if the squad is below half strength).

 

the only reason I mention it is 0/x strength is not a unit in my mind.

[Morollan]

while it does not say one way or another for this question it might affect it....

 

BRB FAQ p3 ph1 q7:

Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a

squad effect working out if a squad is below half

strength or not? (p48)

A: Independent Characters are not counted when

working out if a squad is below half strength or not.

The exception to this is if an Independent Character is

with a Retinue (in which case he is counted when

working out if the squad is below half strength).

 

the only reason I mention it is 0/x strength is not a unit in my mind.

 

Hmmm, if you don't count the IC then the unit is gone completely and the IC would no longer be part of it. Combined with the Tau FAQ I think we can see what should be happening.

[Something Wycked]

That's a good point, timmy. If the IC is not counted for the squad size, and the squad is 0/x, the squad doesn't exist anymore and only the IC remains.