Can you assault over 6”?

[Stormshadow]

Hi, this may sound like a stupid question to some but her it goes.

 

Can a lone wolf, with a fenrisian wolf, utilize the 12” assault range of a beast to assault things that are mare then 6” away?

 

I saw a youtube clip of someone showing lone wolves tactics. He began the assault move by moving the fenrisian wolf more than 6” to get into base to base with an enemy, then he moved the lone wolf 6” to be within 2” of the Fenrisian wolf. Is this legal? I know for a fact that a unit moves as its slowest member, don’t they assault in the same manner?

[Orphus]

Answer: No because the wolves would not be within '2 of the Lone Wolf as required.

[Khine]

If the Wolves were upgrades for his equipment then hes cheating. When in doubt, a unit moves at the slowest models pace.

[Orphus]

Should have clarified in explaining ^. Fenrisian Wolves brought as Wargear must maintain a distance if no more that 2' away from the model they are for. So that person was cheating. If they were just a two Fenrisian Wolves (unlikely but whatever) then-

 

He began the assault move by moving the fenrisian wolf more than 6” to get into base to base with an enemy, then he moved the lone wolf 6” to be within 2” of the Fenrisian wolf. Is this legal? I know for a fact that a unit moves as its slowest member, don’t they assault in the same manner?

 

HANG ON HANG ON :D

 

He began the assault move by moving the fenrisian wolf more than 6” to get into base to base with an enemy...

That's fine. :EDIT: No it's not, see below-

 

...then he moved the lone wolf 6” to be within 2” of the Fenrisian wolf.

Is this 6' an additional 6' to the one in the movement phase?

 

Ok, I'd say the guy is cheating or is just misunderstanding the Fen Wolves as Wargear rule. The WOLVES must be no more than 2' away from their MASTER, this does not work the other way around with the Fen wolves effectively pulling their master towards something. You would move the master first, then move up the wolves next to him.

 

:EDIT: They would effectively move/assult as infantry in this case.

[Spacefrisian]

Could you provide a link to the vid? that way we can point it out to him (wouldnt be suprised if its already pointed out)

[Stormshadow]

I will see if i can find the youtube clip when i get home from work, but you can search for Lone wolf tactics if you have the time. The one in the clip has power armor, frost axe and storm shield.

 

His lone wolf is 7” from the target, and what he does is that he moves the wolf first saying it can assault 12” and then move in with the lone wolf. The lone wolf cannot reach the target but it is with in 2” of a model that is base to base.

[Khine]

I will see if i can find the youtube clip when i get home from work, but you can search for Lone wolf tactics if you have the time. The one in the clip has power armor, frost axe and storm shield.

 

His lone wolf is 7” from the target, and what he does is that he moves the wolf first saying it can assault 12” and then move in with the lone wolf. The lone wolf cannot reach the target but it is with in 2” of a model that is base to base.

 

See thats where hes cheating. if the wolves were an entirely separate unit then sure they can assault 12" but since they are for all intensive purposes chained to the lone wolf, they can only assault up to 6" because of the speed that the lone wolf can charge at is 6" max.

[dswanick]

The Lone Wolf and the Fen.Wolves form a combined unit (of Infantry and Beasts). Strictly by RAW what the video is proposing is legal. The "moves at the speed of the slowest model" restriction is in the Characters section of the rules and only applies while an Independant Character is attached to a unit. The Lone Wolf is not an IC. The only prohibition on their movement is that all Fen.Wolf models must end their move within 2" of the Lone Wolf.

 

That said, this is just another variant of the "Slingshot Maneuver" - and while technically, possibly legal it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. And anyone trying this should be beat down with a rulebook.

[Inquisitor Boreal]

The Lone Wolf and the Fen.Wolves form a combined unit (of Infantry and Beasts). Strictly by RAW what the video is proposing is legal. The "moves at the speed of the slowest model" restriction is in the Characters section of the rules and only applies while an Independant Character is attached to a unit. The Lone Wolf is not an IC. The only prohibition on their movement is that all Fen.Wolf models must end their move within 2" of the Lone Wolf.

 

That said, this is just another variant of the "Slingshot Maneuver" - and while technically, possibly legal it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. And anyone trying this should be beat down with a rulebook.

 

By that logic, couldn't a Wolf Guard pack leader join a unit of Skyclaws, don't buy the upgrade (jumppack) and have the units still being able to move 12"? I don't have the rulebook here, but that sounds like a weird interpretation. Not saying it's wrong, mind you, since I don't have the book.

[Khine]

The Lone Wolf and the Fen.Wolves form a combined unit (of Infantry and Beasts). Strictly by RAW what the video is proposing is legal. The "moves at the speed of the slowest model" restriction is in the Characters section of the rules and only applies while an Independant Character is attached to a unit. The Lone Wolf is not an IC. The only prohibition on their movement is that all Fen.Wolf models must end their move within 2" of the Lone Wolf.

 

That said, this is just another variant of the "Slingshot Maneuver" - and while technically, possibly legal it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. And anyone trying this should be beat down with a rulebook.

 

Hmm .. i always thought of the lone wolves as a IC type figure but then again that would make an iron priest under that same heading aswell..

[Grey Mage]

You always move at the speed of the slowest member of the unit- PERIOD.

 

During the movement phase, shooting phase (ala running) and during the assault phase you only move as fast as your slowest member. So no, there is no way to allow him to assault more than 6".

[dswanick]

The Lone Wolf and the Fen.Wolves form a combined unit (of Infantry and Beasts). Strictly by RAW what the video is proposing is legal. The "moves at the speed of the slowest model" restriction is in the Characters section of the rules and only applies while an Independant Character is attached to a unit. The Lone Wolf is not an IC. The only prohibition on their movement is that all Fen.Wolf models must end their move within 2" of the Lone Wolf.

 

That said, this is just another variant of the "Slingshot Maneuver" - and while technically, possibly legal it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. And anyone trying this should be beat down with a rulebook.

 

By that logic, couldn't a Wolf Guard pack leader join a unit of Skyclaws, don't buy the upgrade (jumppack) and have the units still being able to move 12"? I don't have the rulebook here, but that sounds like a weird interpretation. Not saying it's wrong, mind you, since I don't have the book.

Well, the WGPL would still be limited to moving 6" and the unit would still be required to maintain unit coherency, so no - the unit could not move 12", and the instances were all the models could be moved their maximum movement speed within the above restrictions would be very few.

You always move at the speed of the slowest member of the unit- PERIOD.

 

During the movement phase, shooting phase (ala running) and during the assault phase you only move as fast as your slowest member. So no, there is no way to allow him to assault more than 6".

Ah, but is there an actual rule in the rulebook which states this? The only one I am familiar with is this :

"While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together." - BRB, Pg.48, INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS JOINING & LEAVING UNITS

 

I agree with you about the propoer way the rule should be played. I also see the gaping loophole that exists in this circumstance, unless I've missed another instance of the "moves at the slowest" rule which would apply to a non-IC Lone Wolf and his F.W. wargear companions.

 

P.S. : This really strikes me as a good thread to be in the +Official Rules+ forum. You'll get a better cross-section of thoughtful and informed opinions there.

[eyeslikethunder]

page 11 pf my little rulebook states under different movement distances in a unit in the first page of the movement phase rules

 

All of the models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model

while these are rules for the movement phase

 

p34 assault rules

 

All of the models in the assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the movement phase

[dswanick]

page 11 brb states under different movement distances in a unit in the first page of the movement phase rules

 

All of the models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model

Very good. But we're talking about the Assault phase, not the Movement phase. So the best we can come up with, then, is :

"MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS

All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.", BRB, Pg.34

So while the "slowest model" rule is not specifically called out as applying, the sentence does say all rules except for the 1" rule. So there is the solution - by RAW it is illegal. Thanks, elt.

[eyeslikethunder]

I thought about that see updated post glad we agree

[Wulfebane]

While the Lone Wolf may not be labeled an IC, the fen wolves are a wargear purchase and considered a retinue (BRB pg48) so they are required to maintain "within 2" of their master" (Loyal Companions special rule for fen wolves, SW codex pg 31). the fen wolves are not their own unit for which the Lone Wolf has joined, the wolves belong to him.

[Inquisitor Boreal]

The Lone Wolf and the Fen.Wolves form a combined unit (of Infantry and Beasts). Strictly by RAW what the video is proposing is legal. The "moves at the speed of the slowest model" restriction is in the Characters section of the rules and only applies while an Independant Character is attached to a unit. The Lone Wolf is not an IC. The only prohibition on their movement is that all Fen.Wolf models must end their move within 2" of the Lone Wolf.

 

That said, this is just another variant of the "Slingshot Maneuver" - and while technically, possibly legal it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. And anyone trying this should be beat down with a rulebook.

 

By that logic, couldn't a Wolf Guard pack leader join a unit of Skyclaws, don't buy the upgrade (jumppack) and have the units still being able to move 12"? I don't have the rulebook here, but that sounds like a weird interpretation. Not saying it's wrong, mind you, since I don't have the book.

Well, the WGPL would still be limited to moving 6" and the unit would still be required to maintain unit coherency, so no - the unit could not move 12", and the instances were all the models could be moved their maximum movement speed within the above restrictions would be very few.

 

Although this has been resolved I just wanted to say that I meant "the rest of the unit" rather than "the entire unit", so I fully realized the WGPL wouldn't magically gain an extra 6".

[Khine]

While the Lone Wolf may not be labeled an IC, the fen wolves are a wargear purchase and considered a retinue (BRB pg48) so they are required to maintain "within 2" of their master" (Loyal Companions special rule for fen wolves, SW codex pg 31). the fen wolves are not their own unit for which the Lone Wolf has joined, the wolves belong to him.

 

In that case the entire "unit" could have a possible 8" assault then. Lone wolf moves 6" , Fen wolves move 8" ( still within the 2" rule). Correct?

 

Or are we still going with the tried an true " Move at the slowest pace"

[Wulfebane]

While the Lone Wolf may not be labeled an IC, the fen wolves are a wargear purchase and considered a retinue (BRB pg48) so they are required to maintain "within 2" of their master" (Loyal Companions special rule for fen wolves, SW codex pg 31). the fen wolves are not their own unit for which the Lone Wolf has joined, the wolves belong to him.

 

In that case the entire "unit" could have a possible 8" assault then. Lone wolf moves 6" , Fen wolves move 8" ( still within the 2" rule). Correct?

 

Or are we still going with the tried an true " Move at the slowest pace"

 

 

Correct. Since they ARE a single unit, they follow the "slowest member" rule.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So if all members of a unit move at the pace of the slowest member, how can the wolves move 8" if the LW can only move 6"? Answer is, they can't. They can move 6" max.

[Inquisitor Boreal]

So in summary;

A Lone Wolf cannot be joined by a pack of FW since they're a unit. However, the FAQ says that they're bought as wargear and that makes it okay. The main rulebook otoh (iirc) states that units bought as wargear are still units since they have a unit type. Nonetheless, it's a unit of a Lone Wolf and Fenrisian Wolves (unit, since units can't join units) and units cannot move at a pace faster than its slowest model.

 

I think I just confused myself here :P

[Stormshadow]

Thanks a lot for clearing this up every one.

 

This was a bitter sweet victory though. When I saw the clip I immediately thought that this is a rules violation, and you have decidedly proven me right. But some part of me was hoping that the lone wolf would get that “8 inch + base of the wolf” assault move. After all, the pour fellow has been walking all across the board to get some action, and now he still needs to walk those extra inches to get into the assault.

[the jeske]

that is not how you rubber bend in w40k . need an HQ faster then a unit for that.

[skoll]

wow guys before you label this cheating realize one thing, when the unit assaults, it does so as a unit not on a per model basis so it is considered that the lone wolf and the war gear move at the same time so theoretically the wolf is never more than 2 away from his master. Also while they establish that the assault phase follows rules of the movement phase, this should be specifically for the rules they name, after all this is a common use tactic for sling shooting , honestly I dont use it because I like my lone wolves as the name states ALONE(no wolves either), but I believe it is a viable tactic and LEGITIMATE tactic. Also if that wasnt true jump infantry would treat difficult terrain as dangerous during the assault phase as well, which I've never seen do.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Jump Infantry can choose to move on foot and are, in most cases, explicitly described as charging the last few feet into combat on foot.

 

At the risk of sounding harsh, it doesn't matter what you believe is legitimate. The Rulebook says it isn't legitimate, so it's not.