Know no fear question (Spoilers)

[Captain Idaho]

You can ignore the first half of the book and it doesn't change anything about the story.. That makes poor writing in my opinion.

 

Though I enjoyed the nitty-gritty supplied in the first half, like an Ultramarine's viewpoint regarding recent events and Guilliman's place in amongst his brothers, or the detail of the suffering Dreads go through and realisation why Chaos Dreads go so crazy and why the Imperial ones go into stasis.

 

And the humourous moments like when a Sergeant under censure thought "I'm in as much trouble as I can be in, so what the hell". That actually made me giggle.

 

Admittedly the Ultramarines flavour was necessary for me and not everyone wanted to read it (Theory and Practical was great insight), but then I embrace most of the detail for Legions and don't discriminate and it surprises when people do so. *shrug*

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You can ignore the first half of the book and it doesn't change anything about the story.. That makes poor writing in my opinion.

 

Though I enjoyed the nitty-gritty supplied in the first half, like an Ultramarine's viewpoint regarding recent events and Guilliman's place in amongst his brothers, or the detail of the suffering Dreads go through and realisation why Chaos Dreads go so crazy and why the Imperial ones go into stasis.

 

And the humourous moments like when a Sergeant under censure thought "I'm in as much trouble as I can be in, so what the hell". That actually made me giggle.

 

Admittedly the Ultramarines flavour was necessary for me and not everyone wanted to read it (Theory and Practical was great insight), but then I embrace most of the detail for Legions and don't discriminate and it surprises when people do so. *shrug*

 

Wait, do you think I'm discriminating or was that an unrelated remark?

 

Because yes, I hunger for more details about the Legions but I don't want to be forced to sit through poor story-telling to find out such nuggets of information.

 

My issue is that if you subtract the first - roughly - half of the book, the story doesn't actually lose anything. Yes, you lose a lot of little moments but overall I don't think it contains anything that adds to the story.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh no, I was moving on to make a generic remark! Man, I've been doing that a lot lately (my son is ill and it's distracting)! I do not consider you to be discriminate, so I apologise for being so careless.

 

To reiterate my response to yours; I don't mind the first half of the story being filler but then I am a shameless Ultras fan. I'm just that kind of person generally though, as I liked the way every action the Word Bearers took made me feel bitter and retaliation from the Ultramarines was all the sweet since the filler really illustrated how the Ultras were betrayed and just how tragic it was.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Oh no, I was moving on to make a generic remark! Man, I've been doing that a lot lately (my son is ill and it's distracting)! I do not consider you to be discriminate, so I apologise for being so careless.

 

Not careless, I just wasn't sure if you'd rambled to that point or not.

 

To reiterate my response to yours; I don't mind the first half of the story being filler but then I am a shameless Ultras fan. I'm just that kind of person generally though, as I liked the way every action the Word Bearers took made me feel bitter and retaliation from the Ultramarines was all the sweet since the filler really illustrated how the Ultras were betrayed and just how tragic it was.

 

See, I'm a story fan more than a fan of anything else - at heart I'll always be a writer - and it's my belief that "filler" is a cardinal sin of story telling; if it's not important to the story why must it be there at all?

 

In Know No Fear

the censured Sergeant has that "may aswell be shot for a sheep as a lamb" attitude when he starts practicing,

which doesn't add much to the story as a whole but hints at deeper character for the Ultramarines.

 

My problem is that there is far too much "filler" in the first part of the book, such that it was a slog to find a reason to keep reading - though I did and finished the book having enjoyed the latter segments.

[Legatus]

And the humourous moments like when a Sergeant under censure thought "I'm in as much trouble as I can be in, so what the hell". That actually made me giggle.

It would have been funny, had it been used on any other kind of subordinate. But since it was an Ultramarine, it was extremely out of place and out of character. Those are the thoughts of someone who obeys orders and behaves disciplined because otherwise he would face censure. They are not the thoughts of someone who is raised in a society and then psychologically indoctrinated to see disciplined behaviour as an essential part of his way of life. A problem with a lot of the actions and dialogue of the Ultramarines in that book.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus, I think sometimes you confuse discipline and brainwashing. I have stood at attention in the hot sun until I nearly passed out because I was disciplined. It doesn't mean I didn't crack jokes or agreed with being made to stand so long. If Thiel realized he probably might be busted to private or reconfigured as a servitor I could imagine him having a ';) it' moment and playing with some swords before he gets the axe.

 

Putting your duty first and always doesn't mean you lose what it is to be human.

[Legatus]

You weren't raised in a culture where strict discipline is highly valued. Few people are. And if we leave psychic conditioning aside for a moment, for almost every soldier in history there is a life outside of his service. Even if his career ends badly (with dishonourable discharge, not death), he will have another life to return to. Space Marines don't have that. They do not have any life outside of the Chapter to look forward to or to fall back on. The Chapter is all they have. Thiel was not taking his "job" lightly, he was taking his entire existence lightly.

[DarkGuard]

@Idaho,

I'm pretty sure the server girl said something along the lines of more than half the Ultramarines present had been killed, and Ventanus thought that over 100,000 Marines dead in the opening exchanges was a massive blow to the Legion. So isn't that more than half the Legion. I probably read it wrong, and there may be time to rebuild if there's warp storms cutting them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

Also, bolters tend to have that annoying habit of going straight through ceramite in this book, on both sides, not sure what to think of that.

 

[Captain Idaho]

You weren't raised in a culture where strict discipline is highly valued. Few people are. And if we leave psychic conditioning aside for a moment, for almost every soldier in history there is a life outside of his service. Even if his career ends badly (with dishonourable discharge, not death), he will have another life to return to. Space Marines don't have that. They do not have any life outside of the Chapter to look forward to or to fall back on. The Chapter is all they have. Thiel was not taking his "job" lightly, he was taking his entire existence lightly.

 

It's human nature to be anarchic and wild as a child and this stays deep within us (even if repressed) our whole lives and no amount of discipline removes this primordal emotion completely. It's in all of us; have you ever had urges to do something you shouldn't? That's the deep rooted rebellious need to break away from restriction and do what makes you happy.

 

I don't believe the Ultramarines or denzions of Ultramar are entirely defined by obedience. We don't even know exactly what being disicplined or obedient in Ultramar is! Defining discipline invariably requires definition of what is expected in the society to be obedient and said discipline. Does it mean they resfrain from eating after noon before dinner at six, or does it mean they take care to eat appropriately which often means not eating between means but sometimes you're hungry you know?

 

@ DarkGuard: Probably, can't remember! But either way my point stands that there are more Ultramarines left than previously stated (30,000) so the back ground worked before to have them deal with the Scouring then it should still work! ;)

[Legatus]

It's human nature to be anarchic and wild as a child and this stays deep within us (even if repressed) our whole lives and no amount of discipline removes this primordal emotion completely. It's in all of us; have you ever had urges to do something you shouldn't? That's the deep rooted rebellious need to break away from restriction and do what makes you happy.

Space Marines do not desire companionship. Ever. And they do not strive to be remembered for any achievement, other than their service in the Chapter. And the desire to give the superior a lip or to crack one liners is a minor issue compared to those. It is all part of the deal where the aspirants give up a normal human life to become a Space Marine.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's human nature to be anarchic and wild as a child and this stays deep within us (even if repressed) our whole lives and no amount of discipline removes this primordal emotion completely. It's in all of us; have you ever had urges to do something you shouldn't? That's the deep rooted rebellious need to break away from restriction and do what makes you happy.

Space Marines do not desire companionship. Ever. And they do not strive to be remembered for any achievement, other than their service in the Chapter. And the desire to give the superior a lip or to crack one liners is a minor issue compared to those. It is all part of the deal where the aspirants give up a normal human life to become a Space Marine.

 

 

I think that varies from Chapter to Chapter. The Space Wolves are incredibly selfish and all about individuality and desiring to be remembered. The Fire Hawks are glory hounds. The Dark Angels are obsessive. Imperial Fists are masochistic. 1000 chapters 1000 differences.

[Legatus]

The traditions and demeanor may vary, but they all have in comon that the life and behaviour of the Marines are entirely determined by the Chapter's internal traditions. Space Wolves seek personal glory because that is the way Space Wolves operate. In none of the cases do the Space Marines desire self expression outside of the traditions and conventions of the Chapter. (Once they start doing that, they are usually on a path to damnation.) Space Wolves demeanor is different than that of many other Chapters, but even for a Space Wolves there is nothing besides his life in the Chapter.

 

An Ultramarine who gives his superiors lip might be compareable to a Space Wolf who is wary of the constant fighting and gets disgruntled every time they depart on a new mission.

[Techmarine Andreas]

Is it not extemely clear by this point in the Heresy Series that 30K marines are not 40K marines? They seem to retain much more of their "Human Traits" ie sarcasm, wit humor etc? I find the portrayal of the wisecracking and so attitude of the Ultramarines totally in keeping with this. They even acknowledge and understand the whole concept of fear and are able to use thier immense discipline and training to subdue it. the 40K marines simply have these thing Brainwashed/psycoindoctrinated out of them.

 

Regards

 

TM Andreas

[Billuriye]

The Space Wolves are incredibly selfish and all about individuality and desiring to be remembered.

 

Nope.

[Captain Idaho]

The traditions and demeanor may vary, but they all have in comon that the life and behaviour of the Marines are entirely determined by the Chapter's internal traditions. Space Wolves seek personal glory because that is the way Space Wolves operate. In none of the cases do the Space Marines desire self expression outside of the traditions and conventions of the Chapter. (Once they start doing that, they are usually on a path to damnation.) Space Wolves demeanor is different than that of many other Chapters, but even for a Space Wolves there is nothing besides his life in the Chapter.

 

An Ultramarine who gives his superiors lip might be compareable to a Space Wolf who is wary of the constant fighting and gets disgruntled every time they depart on a new mission.

 

But that could just be your interpretation as to what the character of an Ultramarine is. Perhaps they are intended by GW and BL to be different?

[Legatus]

Is it not extemely clear by this point in the Heresy Series that 30K marines are not 40K marines?

Not to me. The Marines in the Uriel Ventris series or the Ragnar series are not much more dignified than those in the Horus Heresy series, I would say. I think it is more dependant on the author, rather than any intentional difference between the attitutdes of 30K and 40K Marines.

[Guest Drekkan]

That is my only gripe with this novel. We know Dan loves his Imperial Guard standing around smoking fags, drinking coffee and complaining about stuff scenes but in this one they felt really tacked on.

 

Roboute and the censured sergeant story lines on Macragge's Honour, the Captain on the planet's surface, the AdMech story thread, the Dreadnought and the Eternal. All these stories worked but some felt like they didn't get enough time because too many pages were wasted going around in circles with the knife brothers and the other loyalist humans. It felt like they kept repeating their same scenes until toward the end of the book.

 

From my humble point of view, Abnett keep writing the same book in the same way (legion, propero burn, know no fear), he just change the characters names that's all.

 

If you consider how many stuff he keep working on that's fare and square. But as an horus heresy reader, I did stop reading books from him, 'cause of the boredom of grammaticus = hawser = pline...

 

Please moderators don't take it has a rant, english isn't my first language. But I'm just done with a comics scenarist that don't pay that much attention to previous background.

 

btw, i've met him previously in person, and he's all nice and stuff. but I just disagree with his take on 30K/40K..

[Captain Juan Juarez]

but I just disagree with his take on 30K/40K..

 

You realise thought that it isn't just his take? The fact his work gets released means it meets the standards of GW as a whole.

[DarkGuard]

@ DarkGuard: Probably, can't remember! But either way my point stands that there are more Ultramarines left than previously stated (30,000) so the back ground worked before to have them deal with the Scouring then it should still work! ;)

 

Ah, misunderstood that point, thought you were talking about general Legion numbers, shouldn't read while tired :D. Thanks buddy :P.

[nurgling6688]

I agree that 30k marines and 40k marines are almost worlds apart. The marines of the 41st millennium don't understand WHY they do stuff, or why their chapter operates in this way. It just always has and thats the way it supposed to be.

 

30k marines are still forming the traditions and training that makes up the core of the beliefs of the 40k marines. I think to say they are more human is entirely accurate. Remember, probably about a quarter of each legion is made up of terrans, who were the FIRST space marines. They had nothing to look back on and form the way they act upon. They were the ones carving out the Space Marine niche and the legions acted in concert with regular humans much more then the chapters do, which are mostly isolated and only interact with other space marines. This would make them much more, odd. ADB once compared a 40k marine to someone with autism, they just have no grasp of human interactions and emotions, they have no need for it.

 

Marines in 30k were suppose to take over governing roles and peace keeper roles after the Great Crusade, so they needed a lot more basic human emotions. You can't have someone who is completely alien to the human way of life helping to direct it. I think this is why 30k and 40k marines are so different, and its not just Abnett who writes them that way, I think it would be fair to say almost every 30k marine has been written with a much more human approach.

 

Also remember, the Primarchs, while the most super human being alive, were also some of the most tragically human, and they had a direct hand in the shaping of their legion.

[Redrandy93]

Early in the book it clearly stated only 20 of the 25 commanders ( chapter masters ) were present and that represented 200,000 Ultramarines where each Chapter had 10,000 space marines composed of 10 companies of 1000 marines each. The Ultras took huge losses in marines, equipment and space assets. But there still 50,000 Ultra marines else where that were not involved.

 

I liked the book and it took me three sessions to read it full. I wish there was about another 100 pages showing more detail on how Remus Ventanus and remanents of the ultra marines overcame the WB below Calth. there were some interesting side stories that i hope get fleshed out in some other book.

 

We also see how the warp storms were initiated that blocked down the sector.

 

:)

[Aegnor]

I'm hoping we get at least one more novel re: Calth, plus a few more short stories etc. ADB has Betrayer coming, which will rock, and I suppose you could sorta count Battle for the Abyss as a novel that was peripherally about Calth (if we're acknowledging it's existence).

 

In terms of scale, it's probably third, only behind the Siege of Terra and the Dropsite Massacre. The campaign can and should get plenty of fleshing out in the years to come.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm hoping we get at least one more novel re: Calth, plus a few more short stories etc. ADB has Betrayer coming, which will rock, and I suppose you could sorta count Battle for the Abyss as a novel that was peripherally about Calth (if we're acknowledging it's existence).

 

In terms of scale, it's probably third, only behind the Siege of Terra and the Dropsite Massacre. The campaign can and should get plenty of fleshing out in the years to come.

 

An excellent point and I agree that we should get another novel showing off the final victory on Calth, but I'd rank it at fourth. Terran and Istvaan V get slots 1 and 2 in terms of engagement size, with 3 going to Tallarn. Fists and Hands vs. Perturabo's boys, remarked as being the single largest tank battle in Imperial history -- and considering the amount of armor most Marines go to war with, that's saying something.

[Grimdarkness]

On the topic of thiel I read it as he was censored by his company captain for speaking of theoretical ideas on space marines fighting other space marines. He continued to share his ideas and then his chapter commander was set to deal with him.

 

Now as I understand it space marines are marital beings and can appreciate a finely crafted weapon as much as a mortal human can so putting a marine in a room full of finely crafted weapons and then letting him wait there for hours is asking for trouble.

 

As for the scrap code hesst died creating the fire wall that beat it,s why the defence grid was set to automatic and the WB,s fire ship got close to the shipyards. IIRC

 

Over all I liked the book.

[esinhorn]

We all know the numbers in a Legion have been reconned where the norm is 100k

The Ultras had 250k so even a 100k loss still puts them above most Legions in regards to man power

And rememeber Everyone took losses