Olis Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Iirc the Ultras lost over 150,000 legionaries at Calth (I believe the muster numbers were quoted as exluding 50,000 legionaries which were deployed elsewhere in the 500 worlds of Ultramar and the survivors of the surpise attack were somewhere in the region of 30,000 on the ground when a reasonable regroup and counter attack was orchestrated). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3041140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shintuhadoken Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 What i don't get from the book is how did Lodgar know about Omergron? I mean he is preparing a copy of his book of Lodgar for all the traitor Primarchs, except Alpharuis who is getting two copies slightly different from one another. I thought the existance of Omergron was suppose to be a mystery to everyone, maybe even the Emperor himself. Unless it wasn't a mystery at all and every one knew anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3041405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I believe it is never stated the Primarchs, Legions and Imperial command figures were NOT aware of the existance of Omegon and it is an assumption because we never heard anything about it until Legion, but it is still up in the air to be honest. Even if no one else knows of him, Lorgar could easily have found out from his dirty Chaos allegience... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3041487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The book states that there were 30k Ultramarines leading the resistance/counter attack on Calth, and it previously stated that there were 50k stationed on other worlds in the system. So 80k marines, even if they lose 3/4 of that in the coming wars, they will still have 20k, and enough for 20 2nd founding chapters once the reforms are brought in ( I could be very very wong, but I BELEIVE there are 23 second founding UM chapters? - having looked at Lexicanum, I can only see 16) Obviously being the largest legion the UM are the only Marines who could lose 80% of their fighting strength and still be able to form 20-odd new chapters, I beleive most other legions were around 50-70k warriors at their peaks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3041518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Plus, even after Calth, they presumably retained the efficient practices and organisational talents and resources that had allowed them to grow so much bigger than the other legions, so would have rebounded in number faster than the other legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3041574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just finished reading it....enjoyed it but I can echo many of the previous complaints..... It started slow, was a bit hard to get into (honestly if I hadn't wanted to find out how the battle played out I'd have put it down, which is rare for an HH novel for me), and the ending definitely seemed rushed to me.... Are we far enough into the thread now that we can ask some questions regarding things revealed that may be spoilers? (Without blacking out text that is) Because there certainly were some things that were very interesting revelations that we should be discussing here.... :) ~BtW Edit: to add a caveat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3042981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 but I just disagree with his take on 30K/40K.. You realise thought that it isn't just his take? The fact his work gets released means it meets the standards of GW as a whole. Ward's work gets published and large amounts of people hate him, the key to them getting published is that GW likes money. So if they are able to make some kind of profit then they will continue to get published. And on the fact, I'm sure that in the 7ish years that they had in-between calth and the end of the war they could have filled back up their ranks pretty fast seeing as how they had 500ish worlds to take recruits from. BTW, does that number seem big, I didn't think that the ultramarines oversaw that many worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3043413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I'm sure that in the 7ish years that they had in-between calth and the end of the war they could have filled back up their ranks pretty fast seeing as how they had 500ish worlds to take recruits from. BTW, does that number seem big, I didn't think that the ultramarines oversaw that many worlds. An argument that has arisen before. As the biggest Legion, it does kind of make sense that they had a number of worlds under their thumb, given that the populations of a mere handful of worlds would make the Legions recruitment difficult. After all, over 100,000 astartes which alone are cadidates from hundreds upon thousands of potentials would be difficult to source from less than 100 worlds without stripping the worlds of all their young males, effectively ruining the planets population and rendering redundant for future recruitment. After the Codex split, I imagine this number dropped drmatically as other Chapters took over resposibilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3043421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Also there would be a very small number of suitable candidates from each world, and the whole creation period I would guess takes a few years. Implants, then training and indoctrination? Not sure how long everything takes but iirc in the SW novels it takes a few years to turn Ragnar into a full marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3043726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Also there would be a very small number of suitable candidates from each world, and the whole creation period I would guess takes a few years. Implants, then training and indoctrination? Not sure how long everything takes but iirc in the SW novels it takes a few years to turn Ragnar into a full marine. I would guess that with SW it would probably take a little but longer than a standard "codex" marine. As they have to go through, in addition to the regular implants, the side effects of the Canis Helix, and the time they are kept sequestered by the Wolf Priests while going through it. But I'd say that they'd have time to replace at least a few of those losses, providing of course that they were able to recover usable geneseed from the surface of Calth, which may prove difficult... I would think that even with the UM losing half or more of the numbers that they would still be an effective force, once the Warp storms let up and allow them to leave the Calth system, and the numbers do seem to jive with the numbers of chapters reported to have been created during that subsequent founding. ( referring to those created from the remaining UM) What I found more fascinating were the hints at the situation with the Librarians, and with the jealously and competition between key players in the WB hierarchy that have major impacts upon the way things develop.... (trying not to give away to much) How different things would have been had just those two scenarios been different.... :P ~BtW Edit: In my semi-sociapathic tendencies it hadn't occurred to me how "late" I was to the party, of reading the book that is. I completely overlooked the fact that there were/are multiple threads on this book and it's other revelations, lol .... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3043785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Just finished reading it....enjoyed it but I can echo many of the previous complaints..... It started slow, was a bit hard to get into (honestly if I hadn't wanted to find out how the battle played out I'd have put it down, which is rare for an HH novel for me), and the ending definitely seemed rushed to me.... Am I the only person who liked the beginning? I loved reading about the lives of the people who would be involved, getting their back stories, their hopes for the future, their quirks and dissatisfactions. It almost felt cinematic, painting the picture that this battle would be against Orks and the Ultramarines and Word Bearers would be best buddies. It still had the atmosphere of the first few books, of the better Imperium still being in eye shot, still appearing to be an attainable goal. And then, everything falls apart, which just makes the opening more tragic, but in a good way. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3043925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 For me it wasn't the characters, or the back story that bothered me, it was the writing style in which it was done. I am getting ready to go back through and read it a second time and I don't think it will bother me as much this time through. I guess its unorthodoxy is what got to me, even though it does seem to fit very well with the identity of the UM's in retrospect... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3044214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Nah, Dark Guard, I'm with you on this one. As you said, it felt cinematic and I do so love the movies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3044220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLordInquisitor_Movie Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Dan Abnett is one of my favorite authors, but if you aren't ready for it his novels can throw you for a loop in the first few chapters. This is because he pulls no punches and just throws you right into this made up world and leaves it up to you to be able to make sense of it. I love his writing, its that much more believable for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3044846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Dan Abnett is one of my favorite authors, but if you aren't ready for it his novels can throw you for a loop in the first few chapters. This is because he pulls no punches and just throws you right into this made up world and leaves it up to you to be able to make sense of it. I love his writing, its that much more believable for it. One of Dan's quirks, something I both love and hate him for, is the way he makes you know a character, understand the character's feelings, hopes and fears. Then he kills the character. It's the same with the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3044922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 What i don't get from the book is how did Lodgar know about Omergron? I mean he is preparing a copy of his book of Lodgar for all the traitor Primarchs, except Alpharuis who is getting two copies slightly different from one another. I thought the existance of Omergron was suppose to be a mystery to everyone, maybe even the Emperor himself. Unless it wasn't a mystery at all and every one knew anyway. I see it as he was told by the Gods to write the books in that way. Not knowing exactly why just following their will Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3044923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Nah, Dark Guard, I'm with you on this one. As you said, it felt cinematic and I do so love the movies... Ah good. When I was reading it that's the best way I could describe it, cinematic. Like you have all these clips on the characters who will be in the massive battle next, getting you acquainted with them before the bullets fly. Suppose Black Hawk Down does something similar, I'm sure there are better examples though. But that introduction really drew me into the book really well. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248099-know-no-fear-question-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3045082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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