First Claw,Tenth Company

[Valdr Fell-fist]

Ave Dominus Nox!

Hail brothers, i have a question for you.

I am currently casting around for projects to work on, as my Scouring Era Space Wolves aren't...ahem...performing particuarly well at the moment. Now, one idea (my favourite idea if i'm honest) is to cast my lot in with the sons of Curze. So, of course, i would like to collect something based upon A D-B's fantastic novels, but set somewhat earlier when 10th company is somewhat more numerous.

Obviously the first unit to build would be First Claw led by Soul Hunter himself. Now, looking through the codecii i have available, i feel that Codex:Blood Angels is perhaps the best ruleset to use. Fast units, capable of swarming any opponent far quicker than they'd like with terrifying assault units.

I am considering using Talos as a Librarian without the Epistolary upgrade, using the very suitable Fear of Darkness and Shackle Soul psychic powers.

The main conundrum i am having is how to represent First Claw. Obviously, a simple Tactical squad is somewhat underwhelming. So, the question i have is : Sternguard or Vanguard?

Also. any general advice for the Night Lords would be greatly appreciated.

[greatcrusade08]

if your using the BA dex why not use the death company?

[Lexington]

Your call, of course, but I don't really see First Claw as being anything more than a bog standard Chaos/Tactical Marine squad. Talos' psychic abilities are fairly subtle and not really well-suited to the battlefield, plus he's not in control of them at all. As to the rest, none of them really seem to stand out from the norm in a way that screams for special rules. Uzas is a little far gone in his weird symbiosis with Khorne, but he's not a Berzerker by any means. They're just not really special in any way that sets them from your average Chaos Marines from the perspective of the tabletop.

[Valdr Fell-fist]

Thanks for the fast replies.

@GC08: I do plan on including a small unit of death company at a later death, but i think the best justification for such a unit would be some night lords who have fallen somewhat closer than normal to the worship of khorne and have been removed for the claws and lumped together. Or perhaps some warriors who have recieved the infamous Red Gauntlets and are living on borrowed time?

@Lexington: You have a good point, brother, but...it's sort of a shame to use them as just 'Tactical squad number 1'

[Noctus Cornix]

How would I represent them?..... As corpse decorations for the Night Lords of the 16th Company *evil grin*

[Lexington]

@Lexington: You have a good point, brother, but...it's sort of a shame to use them as just 'Tactical squad number 1'

I know, right? Those books are friggin' amazing, but not really in a 'for the game' kind of way. Still, interesting modeling opportunities. :)

[Valdr Fell-fist]

@noctus cornix: Brother, did you see the mess we made of the last night lords to start something with us? You don't make corpses of First Claw, First Claw makes corpses of YOU!

@Lexington: Those books are the sole reason that i'm finding heretical thoughts in my head. Before, i was a good Wolf-Brother, but now i can't seem to start painting without thinking 'these would look so much better as Night Lords'.

Perhaps i could use Talos as a stand-in for Brother Corbulo? His re-roll representing one of Talos' previous visions? And as this is earlier than the books, the Apothecary role kind of make sense. That would mean boosting Xarl up to Squad Leader but ,hey, he's hard enough to keep Uzas in line. Mostly.

As for conversions, i've spent today re-reading the books, making careful notes of all the details of their armour for later reference. Now, if only forgeworld sold their old armour marks in packs of one, i'd be ready to go.

[Lexington]

Now, if only forgeworld sold their old armour marks in packs of one, i'd be ready to go.

It's not the cheapest choice, but there's several vendors on eBay who offer single bits from those sets. If you get them all from a single seller, you can probably get them all shipped at once for a decent rate.

[A D-B]

They don't translate well into the rules (Hell, who does? The rules are woeful for representing the fluff, sometimes) but the most common thing I hear from people is a squad of Chosen, tooled up with gear.

[Paradigm]

I think it would make the most sense to take them as chosen in the CSM codex. The blood angels dex is superior, but the chaos dex is much better at representing the units.

 

I really love the BA dex. I even originally intended my night lords warband to use it, (of course, I'd never take jump pack troops or anything else unfluffy for NLs) but in the end the only codex that "fits" is the chaos codex and maybe, but an unlikely maybe the space wolf dex.

[Valdr Fell-fist]

@Lexington: You have a good point there. Think i'd best go check that out. Funny, i never seem to think of ebay when i actually have money. :)

@ Fortnight: Yeah, the Space Wolf Codex might work for them but...i've been a Wolf Player for over ten years now. I'd kinda like a change of pace.

@A D-B: :P (Don't come of as a fanboy man, be cool. be cool). Yeah, that's not going to work. Wow, i've had, like, the fifth God of Chaos comment in one of my threads. Can i just thank you for all the fabulous books that you have wrote, with the Night Lords ones standing premier. Cannot wait for the next. It is purely those two books that have pulled me away from the forces of the Imperium. Hmm, might have to have a look at the Chaos Dex again.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

[Morollan]

They don't translate well into the rules (Hell, who does? The rules are woeful for representing the fluff, sometimes) but the most common thing I hear from people is a squad of Chosen, tooled up with gear.

 

Was definitely my first thought when reading the utterly fantastic (at the risk of sounding sycophantic) books.

[the jeske]

how is a unit of chosen better at representing anything then a unit of venguard or honor guard out of the BA dex ?

[Noctus Cornix]

Because First Claw has neither the skill or the ability to preform well enough to be considered Vanguard Veterans Honor Guard

 

Chosen are just like normal chaos space marines with the exception that they can infiltrate, just as First Claw is just another squad of the warband

 

Also as far as equipment goes, first claw has bolters and chain swords. Vanguard Veterans don't get bolters.

 

So

 

Talos

-Champion with Power Sword and Storm Bolter

Xarl

-Chainsword and bolter

Mercution

-Heavy bolter

Cyrion

-Chainsword and bolter

Uzas

-Chainaxe and bolter

 

and if you want to use Variel, he's just another member but you could use a mark of nurgle to counts as his apothecary abilities if you so choose.

[A D-B]

Because First Claw has neither the skill or the ability to preform well enough to be considered Vanguard Veterans Honor Guard

 

Chosen are just like normal chaos space marines with the exception that they can infiltrate, just as First Claw is just another squad of the warband

 

Also as far as equipment goes, first claw has bolters and chain swords. Vanguard Veterans don't get bolters.

 

So

 

Talos

-Champion with Power Sword and Storm Bolter

Xarl

-Chainsword and bolter

Mercution

-Heavy bolter

Cyrion

-Chainsword and bolter

Uzas

-Chainaxe and bolter

 

and if you want to use Variel, he's just another member but you could use a mark of nurgle to counts as his apothecary abilities if you so choose.

 

Sort of.

 

Part of it is that, no, they're not exactly Chaos Lords.

 

But they're also pretty modest. They're not the elite. They're not Atramentar. But they're pretty talented, and very decent in a fight (though, admittedly, they usually survive by running away and/or never fighting fair). Xarl is one hell of a swordsman. Uzas is a berserker (small "b"), which makes him absolutely vicious in a fight, if he's having a good day. If he's having a bad day, he's almost useless.

 

It's just a case of the rules being too broad at representing individual nuances in the fluff. A warrior who's fought for centuries may not just be using a bolter and knife, except for purposes of game mechanics. Xarl's chainsword, f'rex, is a CCW in the loosest sense, but it's probably closer to an Eviscerator. He's had decades with which to modify his gear, acquire new stuff, and so on.

 

At the very least, rules-wise, you could argue they've all got master-crafted weapons (depending on when you catch them, and if they've raided well recently), as they're a small company but have excellent Mechanicum support.

 

It's just one of the many things that translates badly onto the tabletop.

[Noctus Cornix]

Sort of.

 

Part of it is that, no, they're not exactly Chaos Lords.

 

But they're also pretty modest. They're not the elite. They're not Atramentar. But they're pretty talented, and very decent in a fight (though, admittedly, they usually survive by running away and/or never fighting fair). Xarl is one hell of a swordsman. Uzas is a berserker (small "b"), which makes him absolutely vicious in a fight, if he's having a good day. If he's having a bad day, he's almost useless.

 

It's just a case of the rules being too broad at representing individual nuances in the fluff. A warrior who's fought for centuries may not just be using a bolter and knife, except for purposes of game mechanics. Xarl's chainsword, f'rex, is a CCW in the loosest sense, but it's probably closer to an Eviscerator. He's had decades with which to modify his gear, acquire new stuff, and so on.

 

At the very least, rules-wise, you could argue they've all got master-crafted weapons (depending on when you catch them, and if they've raided well recently), as they're a small company but have excellent Mechanicum support.

 

It's just one of the many things that translates badly onto the tabletop.

 

 

I understand that each character has their own little niche and specialty (and in that respect every marine does), but when it comes down to the rules of the game, only Xarl can be estimated as more than just a marine (so if one wanted to be more true to the fluff, Xarl would be made as the champion) but I've never really been fond of the Eviscerator rules seeing as being a bigger sword doesn't make it easier to go through armor and it doesnt even have a power field, but I digress.

 

They are decent in combat but they are still not up to the caliber of Space Marine Vanguard Veteran so Chaos Space Marine Chosen is the only logical answer.

[the jeske]

Because First Claw has neither the skill or the ability to preform well enough to be considered Vanguard Veterans Honor Guard

 

Chosen are just like normal chaos space marines with the exception that they can infiltrate, just as First Claw is just another squad of the warband

am not getting something . stat wise there is no difference . your wont be using jump packs so Heroic aint a problem . gear is more or less the same , with options from HG favoring the BA dex [not counting apothecaries possible FC on start etc].

chosen could be used to outflank in a rhino with 5 specials but that is not how in fluff the first works , you would have to make them a hth unit and chosen are bad at that[aka cost too much for what they can do].

+1A is not a difference . dudes get it by waving two knifs [when actualy they should have fewer attacks doing that because dual wielding aint so cool in actual fights].

[Valdr Fell-fist]

So, if i was to use them as chosen, it could look something like this:

Xarl: Aspiring Champion with Lightning Claw (Yes, it's not an eviscerator but the alternatives are Power weapon or power fist, and i feel that he would be best served with a weapon that would allow him to scythe through opponents without it slowing him down.

Cyrion:Chainsword that counts as a power weapon.

Uzas: Chainaxe that counts as a power weapon.

Sar Zell: Meltagun.

Those last three may seem somewhat unusual, but i would still like them to be able to perform reasonably well as a close combat unit so power weapons are almost a necessity. As for Sar Zell, i intend to use them as somewhat earlier than the books (Sorry A D-B, but it gives me chance to increase their numbers somewhat) so his inclusion seems necessary, as do a few others that i plan to use in the squad. However, this leaves Talos floating around. Chaos Sorceror with Warptime (representing his visions coming into effect) but no other upgrades? That still leaves him short of his boltgun Anthema

[Herald of Ultramar]

I really don't think Sorcerer is the way to go for Talos; while he does have visions of the future they seem fairly limited, and even then they don't necessarily come true. Not to mention the crippling seizures that last for hours. Really, I don't think they would have any in-game effect. Not sure about giving them all power weapons, either, if you're trying to stay true to the novels.

 

Honestly, I think the bog-standard Chaos Marine squad really is the way to go. Aspiring Champion with power weapon and twin-linked boltgun for Talos, the rest standard Chaos Marines. While they're cool and all, they're not really the elites you're trying to make them out to be.

[Yogi]

The beauty of first claw, is they aren't big balls out heros, but regular marines. I would field as a regular squad personally.

[Kol Saresk]

being a bigger sword doesn't make it easier to go through armor and it doesnt even have a power field, but I digress.

I can explain this one! The bigger a weapon is, the more weight it has. In medieval times, they would make axes with the heaviest heads imaginable on the longest poles so they could get a decent fulcrum and if made right, that axe could punch through any suit of armor until it went dull. Of course axes relied on forcing all of their weight on one small point.

 

Now, an Eviscerator is a huge chainsword. Heavy too if I remember right. So right now we have weight and size. Then we have the actual chainsaw part. Let's say it's got three rows of teeth since chainswords seem to have either one or two depending on the picture you look at. So now we have three, very heavy, buzzing rows of teeth. Now, usually you want to swing the sword down. The weight is really coming into it now. Combined with the force of the swing, and the fact that all of this will be hitting either on a shoulder or a head, assuming you hit them, this baby is going to cut.

 

So GW thought about this one when they made its rules.

[Brother Nihm]

Take a look at the rules for Kill-Team, maybe they'd be better suited?

[Brother Ambroz]

When we had the option for eviscerators, they were exactly like chainfists except the fact they were two handed. So if anything Xarl's eviscerator should be a power fist. Unless you use the kill team rules then yeah there's not really a very good way to represent the rest (except for the heavy bolter).

[Paradigm]

I'd do it this way: take uzas as the champ, he would get more attacks, therefore more berzerker like. Xarl gets a lightning claw, talos a power weapon, mercution a heavy bolter, Variel is a nurgle icon bearer, cyrion is standard. Sure, it would be a bit of a point drain on the table top, but would be the closest you could get. Chosen aren't much for cc, and this unit has little focus, but it sure is fluffy.

 

Talos as a sorcerer doesn't make sense. You could take him as a lord with pw and tl-bolter though.

 

Ah, I missed that you were coming over from the wolves.

[Kol Saresk]

Especially since Talos refuses the sorcerer-aspect of his powers. I think if he had the choice he might even get rid of the visions just so he wouldn't have the incapacitating migraines that can come at the most inopportune of times.