grimsaw Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hey there; Ran into a problem today while playing a game. Fielded a stormraven way in the back behind a ton of cover; The guy I was playing insisted I use it on the base although I've never had anyone care about it being on the base or not. He had a landraider parked behind a two daemon princes and a rhino, and there was a ton of terrain between said land raider and my raven. I had put up Shield of Sanguinius at the start of his shooting phase, but he insisted I couldn't get a cover save from it, and that his Land Raider had LOS on my raven even though the gun that could hurt it(sponson lascannon) was completely blocked by units/terrain. Does my raven even get cover saves? I'm assuming based off the wording of Shield of Sanguinius that as long as the raven is close enough it gets the cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Yes. The Raven gets the saves granted by Shield of Sanguinius as long as it's within the 6 inch of the librarian. If the librarian is riding on the Raven then the 6 inches is measured from the raven's hull. Or it's base, but I think it's hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimsaw Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Will the raven get a cover save if it's parked behind a bunch of terrain? i.e. in the above situation. While I saved off the lascannon shot i'd like to avoid him making a big stink every time I field the thing if I'm parked in zimbabwe behind enough trees to build a fort because 'The stormraven can fly.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 If the terrain covers more than 50% LOS than yes, you get a cover save. Unless I'm wrong in which case you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 If the terrain covers more than 50% LOS than yes, you get a cover save. Unless I'm wrong in which case you don't. You're right. Same rules as for any other vehicle. Your opponent was right to insist on you using the base though as without the base you are able to get cover far easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I agree with Morollan. You are must keep the Raven on its stand unless its immobilized, wrecked, etc. BUT, if you can find a large building or similar to hide it behind, then you can get a cover save just like any other vehicle. The scarcity of cover that can actually benefit the Stormraven is the reason many people who use them keep them in reserve if they are not going first on the first turn. Once they come in from reserves, boost them up to get the cover save from going flat out. If you face a large amount of AT fire that is likely to target your SR first turn, then you may need to consider changing your strategy a little in order to keep it alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 If the lascannon could not see the RAven due to intervening units/terrain, the lascannon could not fire. Shield does protect all vehicles including Stormravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Legion Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 There is no point using the base on the Storm Raven in any game, keep it as low as possible so you can potentially get the cover save. Keepin it on a flying base is suicide as far as im concerned, and it should be used as an aesthetic when displaying the model. I know it can be unsportsmanlike against your friends, but in a competitive setting....get rid of it. And if the lascannon was hidden behind infantry style units then yes it could have fired as people move out of the way (it says that in the BRB somewhere), but if there was a solid wall or vehicle then no it couldn't fire. Besides who cares about Shield of Sangunius in that case, he fired the lascannon from behind a daemon prince, if you go to gun level, with the rest of the intervening terrain then i'm sure you could have gotten that 4++ save instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 There is no point using the base on the Storm Raven in any game, keep it as low as possible so you can potentially get the cover save. Keepin it on a flying base is suicide as far as im concerned, and it should be used as an aesthetic when displaying the model. I know it can be unsportsmanlike against your friends, but in a competitive setting....get rid of it. In a competative setting, this is illegal. The model came from GW supplied with a flying base. It must be mounted on the flying base it came supplied with. "BASES Citadel miniatures are normall ysupplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game." - BRB, Pg.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 There is no point using the base on the Storm Raven in any game, keep it as low as possible so you can potentially get the cover save. Keepin it on a flying base is suicide as far as im concerned, and it should be used as an aesthetic when displaying the model. I know it can be unsportsmanlike against your friends, but in a competitive setting....get rid of it. In a competative setting, this is illegal. The model came from GW supplied with a flying base. It must be mounted on the flying base it came supplied with. "BASES Citadel miniatures are normall ysupplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game." - BRB, Pg.3 devils advocate. I'm not seeing anywhere in that statement that it must be mounted on the stand, just the base... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Your opponent was right to insist on you using the base though as without the base you are able to get cover far easier. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this statement. The only reason a Storm Raven has a base is for you to measure embarking/disembarking from (and assaults). It's still a vehicle, and the vehicle rules are pretty clear about how you measure to/from a vehicle- you measure from the vehicles' hull. I suppose you could use the base, but I'd say that would almost be an advantage for some armies like Dark Eldar who could "swing" a raider around to gain an extra 3" for models to embark/disembark as a DE Raider doesn't have the same rule that the Storm Raven does about it's base. Vehicle shooting is always measured from individual weapons for LoS and range. In other words, if a Lascannon is blocked by a piece of terrain (like a side sponson), but the rest of the vehicle is not, the Lascannon can not fire as it has no LoS from the weapon itself. Conversely, for LoS, armor facing, and range it's all measure to a vehicles hull, not it's base (if it has one). If you really wanted to be technical, there is no rule that says a Storm Raven has to be on it's flying stand, only it's base (something I hope is changed in 6th Ed). The way my group plays it- if I move the Storm Raven behind a building, I announce to my opponent "my Storm Raven is attempting to take cover behind this building". It's clear, unambiguous intent, and we still check LoS, and this has prevented so many arguments that I can't believe GW hasn't written it into a FAQ yet. The base of a skimmer is also removed if the skimmer suffers an immobilized result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm not seeing anywhere in that statement that it must be mounted on the stand, just the base... ^_^ at you guys trying to parse the word 'base'. Who are you Bill Clinton? :verymad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Just to add a quick note, if you are playing apoc, and using it as a flier, then you can never claim cover for terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm not seeing anywhere in that statement that it must be mounted on the stand, just the base... :lol: at you guys trying to parse the word 'base'. Who are you Bill Clinton? :) I just find it funny:) In my head i see these uber rules lawyers with rulers running around and measruing how tall the stand is if someone makes their own dissplay stand, then crying foul if it's a mm off:) The mini comes with landing gear down option, mine is landed on the base i say:) (i don't actualy have one built, but when i do there is a good chance i'll do something display wise with it:)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavonvay Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The rules for skimmers are suggestive if you read them fast, but are misleading. That said, if you take your time and use the terms as written a skimmer must be on its base. The statement of not being left hovering is referring to you holding it in the air so it can bypass difficult terrain. It does not talk about removing it from a base. Under the damaged section you find the only rules for removing its (key word) "base" on a wrecked/immobilized result. The rule book very specifically says you can never remove a model from its base other wise. Example of a known Codex exemption to this rule is Tau landing gear which says it bypasses this rule. All Skimmer base information can be found on the skimmer description page in the 5th ed rule book, first under movement and then under shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimsaw Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Alright, thank you. The funny thing about the base (although having little pertaining to my question) is that he only makes a big deal about the stormraven. He doesn't care about bases when it is eldar tanks or necron tanks, he just makes a stink about the raven because, well, it consistently drops a DC dread on his guys. thank you all for clearing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The funny thing about the base (although having little pertaining to my question) is that he only makes a big deal about the stormraven. trust me he acts the same way with vendettas too. He doesn't care about bases when it is eldar tanks or necron tanks, he just makes a stink about the raven because, well, it consistently drops a DC dread on his guys. because the difference in how tall something is generaly doesnt stop people from getting cover , now on the other hand vendettas or ravens on most normal tables never get any form of cover because the number of tables with actual 3 tiers of terrain is rather small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimsaw Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Our table has a massive amount of terrain; To put it in perspective there are some trees on the table that are as tall as the based raven. I had no hand in making the terrain, since they go out of their way to make tons of it when I'm at work/school, but they seem ready to just make a big stink. I've got another question: if I'm playing a 2v2 match, do my allies get FNP from my sang. priests? We were running with 'yes they do', since the 'dex entry says 'All friendly models', but this same guy made a big stink about it and refused to play if I fielded any sang priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Legion Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Ok fair enough...My buddy has my rulebook but I'm with the people saying to leave the SR on its base but take off the stand...or is this still wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Still very much wrong. "Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above [immobilized or wrecked], as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions." You simply cannot take a skimmer off its flying stand except when you get immobilized or wrecked. To do otherwise is against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Legion Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Poop... I'll tell my buddy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachocuban Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 When I play friendly games with people who use Tau, I allow them to use the landing gear the whole game, instead of the flying stand if they want, BUT, they can't switch it in and out during the game. But officially, your not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Ok fair enough...My buddy has my rulebook but I'm with the people saying to leave the SR on its base but take off the stand...or is this still wrong? Seriously?! Seriously, dude?! Yes. Yes this is blatantly wrong. Its a perversion of the rules to gain a benefit as noted above! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 the above is basically all right, you can't take the SR off its stand unless immobilized. that would make it far more effective as it would be easy to gain cover saves. On the second question, it basically up to you. in the GW doubles tounry, then the wargear is restricted to one army, so you dont get any bonuses from other peoples sang priets. however, this is just an extra ruleset for a specific tounrey, and ive seen in it many other (none GW) tournies, that let you gain the bonuses. this is both good and bad as it can let you get some mad combos (FNP orks!!!), but so can your opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 When I play friendly games with people who use Tau, I allow them to use the landing gear the whole game, instead of the flying stand if they want, BUT, they can't switch it in and out during the game. But officially, your not allowed. Except the Tau Landing Gear does allow the player to choose each turn how he wants his vehicles to be (Skimmer or non-). So a Tau player has specific persmission to take his vehicle off the stand and put them back on each turn as he sees fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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