Astorath vs Dante

[Brother Chris]

Very apt quote from J.S.Mill. If you are bringing storytelling to the game, and why on earth not, you are creating your own reality every time you play. I can't see any reason for the 'Your army sucks, Dante was never killed in the battle of Dave's Basement. He was at Armageddon 2 the year afterwards.' invective. I don't (in print) get worked up by 'How can BA beat SW, GK, Sisters' questions, which are more nonsensical fluffwise. They could never happen either. I think the Codex left open to gamers the possibility of BR and Blood Swords being BA successors specifically so you could paint your armies in that way.

 

I vote for Dante because I'm a player from before this Codex and think the new additions are rubbish (don't fit my perceptions of the fluff I had already immersed myself in for a couple of years. Lemartes is the High Chaplain of the Blood Angels in my version of 'reality') And this so called music young people listen to these days is just 'thump, thump, thump' and you can't even hear the words.

 

But on a reasoned comparison. Astorath gives you more randomness and Dante gives you less. So consider your style of playing. The Synergy with other units should be considered, rather than just picking the HQ as an individual. For Astorath, avoid devastators and scouts who will be very irritating to get the red thirst. Take advantage of more than one DC. For Dante take advantage of the SG troops. I always play him with an honour guard, another advantage we have.

[Morticon]

The mods are pretty strict on this forum, its a shame they don't seem to mind people bashing others choice of codex, despite it being off topic and adding no value to the discussion.

 

You know Zealadin, I shoulda picked up on it sooner with all those reports coming in from the Frater on this thread....oh..wait...there were none.

 

;)

 

We cant be everywhere all the time, so if there's a problem that needs to be steered on course then you guys can always use the report button.

 

That being said, chances are that there hasnt been a report because there's been nothing to report.

Snorri expressed his opinion (and backed it up) on why he doesn't think BR = BA and why he thinks C: SM is better.

He wasn't ordering or insisting the OP to follow suit, he was saying why he didn't think it was fluffy -which from the limited fluff i've read - it isn't. But that shouldn't necessarily change the desire to play the army, just realign the reasoning for doing so.

 

I've not seen any codex bashing.

 

That being said, we're in 5th ed, where we're allowed to field out red marines as Space Wolves, our BT as BA, and our DA and UM ! Doesn't make it fluffy but who cares- its about our enjoyment. So as JamesI said, we should be happy more people want to use our dex.

 

I do however believe we should (as has been done) offer constructively critical advise to people starting out with BA if they're under the mistaken impression that BA = BR ipso facto. If they want to find a way to make that link - then awesome. We can even help with that! If they want to remake fluff linking them, and rewrite their own history (as I've done with my successors) then awesome. Power to them! That's part of what the game is about.

 

But as a community, I don't see the value in just sitting by and letting various players confuse the BA with the BR.

If its an active choice to make the Ravens the BA, then all good.

We can totally get behind that!

No reason not to.

 

As to the original post -id echo what the poster above said!

 

A libby and Seth is a good call!

[Demoulius]

this debate on whatever BR's are depicted best with the blood angel dex is heating up for all the wrong reasons :D

 

we are merely saying this: compared to the vanilla codex, we are not showing blood ravens any better then say the dark angel codex is and there are some units in the codex that the blood ravens would not have acces to.

 

if the OP wants to do that its fine. its his army, he can do whatever he wants to with it....

 

we have the custom to point out such issues here though, as when people want to play a fluffy force they generally want to have all the little holes covered. if the OP doesent want to talk about it anymore we can drop the issue as far as im concerned.

 

going back to the OP's original question:

 

So what do I need?

- Something that can fly(jump packs)

- Something scary(Mephy!:.<)

- Something that matches my badass emperors champion, mixed with astorath.

 

id agree that seth is actually a pretty powerhouse hq but he sadly cant fly :D the sanguinor would also fit the bill but the OP doesent want to go that route since the BR's dont have acces to demi gods. (fair enough, id also rule out mephi in that case)

 

so like the OP stated its between asto and dante. il try to summarize their pros and cons abit (you did this yourself but it doesent hurt to do it again i guess ;))

 

Dante

pros:

very high statline for a marine hq. on pare with some of the best hqs around

unit bonuses: grants the unit he is with hit and run, makes them not scatter. in the turn he charged LD test or strike at ws1.

nerfs an opponents IC to make him easier to kill (and make it less easier for him to kill)

2+ armour and 4+ invul

 

cons:

only S4 MC'ed power weapon. with a priest S5 but only on the charge

4+ invul is nice but you can be instant killed. with 4 wounds (IIRC?) thats alot of combat res that one PF your opponent is BOUND to have can achieve....

OP isent using SG so the "SG are troops" rule isent beeing used

huge pointsink for an IC

 

Astorath

pros:

for a chaplain a very good statline. on the level with most other hq units. some excist with a better statline but those generally cost quite a dime

unit bonuses: unit is fearless. rerolls to hit on the charge (with DC also to wound but thats not a factor here)

army wide bonus: half of your units get red thirst, DC become troops (sadly unused)

2+ armour 4+ invul

S6 power weapon that forces rerolls on succesfull saves.

 

cons:

fearless can actually be a drawback in combat more often then not.

only 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. less the Dante

you dont get rerolls after the charge, which might hurt if your facing a tough foe

even with 4+ invul you can instant killed by powerfists and the like

huge pointsink for an IC

 

there, those are the pros and cons as i see them :) i made some overly obvious statements above (like ID) because i feel they are very much a factor here. the characters your considering here are very expensive and they have some of the same flaws that other non named characters have. they can die, and very easily so. be carefull how you handle them. in combat try to pin your opponents powerfist with another model if you can. if you cannot, be sure to place your character more then 6 inches away from that fist or even place him in such a manner that he cant hit the first turn. renember, charge bonuses and the like still count so he might not need to fight in the first turn. and it if it keeps your HQ alive through the game it might be better overall :ermm:

 

both have the same kinds of save but Dante has 1 wound more. dante has better personal stats but less of an offensive punch. astorath is stronger in melee and brings a very huge army wide buff. astorath makes his unit fearless (so you wont run away, some psychic powers are useless on you but in combat it can be a drawback) and dante gets himself and the unit hes with where you want them to go

 

wich one fits the best for you? well you dont use any of the units thats they unlock (sanguinary guard and death company respectivly) so thats not a factor here. tbh astorath is always (well always is a big word, always if you roll a 4+ for your units :)) contributing to your army even if hes dead and dante needs to be around for that. astorath has a more interesting punch in combat as well. more S4(S5) attacks is nice against rank and files i guess but your units can take care off those very handsomely already. S6 rerolling succesfull saves on the otherhand is a shear character killer. also dont need to be on the charge for the high S.

 

and lastly perhaps the deciding matter: fluff. dante is mostly just a captain. his mask can be explained with reputation or a power that induces fear in your opponent. the "striking where you want" can also be somewhat explained with foresight. the lack of a hood can be explained because hes focusing on channeling his powers to much and therefor cant do traditional psyker stuff along with it... allthough it feels somewhat of a stretch, with some inmagionation you can work around it!

 

astorath is also somewhat plausible to explain. he focuses on buffing the entire army hes with (which since there are alot of bodies would require alot of concentration power) so lacks a hood as well. he has a S6 axe because he channels its power in it...and because its a huge axe :huh: and he makes the unit fearless because theyre with...uh... a leader? rerolls can be explained with power.

 

might be explaining most of it with psychic power but tbh your considering a chapter with librarians. codexi say that librarians manifest their powers in many varied ways right? why would the blood angels be the only ones who strengthen their brothers with their powers? ;)

[Zealadin]

Well he posted his list, which obviously cannot be replicated by any other codex and stated he didn't want it changed, that kind of closes the use another codex suggestions. Plus he already has listed that he has tried BR with the SM codex in his sig.

 

Anyway like Demoulius demonstrated it is extremely easy to use special characters in creative ways simply by creating fluff that will suit your army, most of the abilities in the BA codex can represent a variety of circumstances.

If its a Psyker heavy army I'd probably agree that the idea of the 'psykers' or Astorath in this situation, buffing the entire army, but it depends on the use of priests which can kind of nullify the FC portion of this benefit, and fearless can be a mixed bag.

 

I'd build on Demoulius's idea and suggest perhaps making your Sanguinary Priests your 'psykers' in this manner, by giving all surrounding units FNP (representing forsight against danger/damage or the ability to sheild them with his power) and FC in finding enemy weaknesses, or imbuing their weapons with some small amount of power on the charge.

 

In the TSons section of the forum a lot of people (due to a very outdated codex) have used creative fluff to allow them to represent Oblits as TSon's sorcerers throwing destructive spells, Raptors as the Disc flying 'jump infantry' described in the novel, and many other ideas.

That is to say that you can represent psykers with models using normal wargear but with the suggestion that they may not have a melta gun (although you might want it modeled in there) but instead use their powers to crack open vehicles.

[Crimson Devil]

The mods are pretty strict on this forum, its a shame they don't seem to mind people bashing others choice of codex, despite it being off topic and adding no value to the discussion.

 

You know Zealadin, I shoulda picked up on it sooner with all those reports coming in from the Frater on this thread....oh..wait...there were none.

 

:P

 

We cant be everywhere all the time, so if there's a problem that needs to be steered on course then you guys can always use the report button.

 

That being said, chances are that there hasnt been a report because there's been nothing to report.

Snorri expressed his opinion (and backed it up) on why he doesn't think BR = BA and why he thinks C: SM is better.

He wasn't ordering or insisting the OP to follow suit, he was saying why he didn't think it was fluffy -which from the limited fluff i've read - it isn't. But that shouldn't necessarily change the desire to play the army, just realign the reasoning for doing so.

 

I've not seen any codex bashing.

 

 

I disagree, Snorri thread crapped all over the OP's idea. His post comes off as hostile and absolute.

[Demoulius]

re-read their posts and while i see what you mean i dont see him as beeing more agressive then the OP's resonse to his post....

 

i hope the OP's question has been anwsered and he got a satisfactory repsonse from the community. now lets let the issue rest before it derails and the mods have to melta it :)

[SnorriSnorrison]

I disagree, Snorri thread crapped all over the OP's idea. His post comes off as hostile and absolute.

 

Absolute yes, a bit cynic as well, being hostile was not my intention.

 

I didn't respond to the OP's request for backing up my comments since I was under the impression that it would have changed the whole course of the thread even more.

 

 

 

At last, I agree with Demoulious - we should not let loose the hounds of flame-war in here but rather answer the OP's question to his satisfaction.

 

 

Snorri