Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hi all its about the Lion. can anyone quote me the Third edition dex that talks about the Lion being in the rock? Read second post about the debate I am currently in Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 ok, so, for clarification, why I am asking is that I have a debate about some guy who thinks Cypher is The Lion.... heres his arguement. Posted for you to peruse: Reasons for the Lion being Cypher, The Fallen Cypher was a pre-heresy title of office in The Order. His role was that of keeper of secrets and traditions. In the present the current Cypher is said to be one of The Fallen. 1. During the fall of caliban the Lion’El and Luther drew swords and engaged one and other in a titanic battle ending in the destruction of Caliban, but as of the end only Luther was remaining to be seen, whilst the Lion’El was gone. - Speculation leads to Lion’El being takin below the depths of the rock by the mysterious ‘Keeper of the Truth’ but this was only an ‘allegation’ there is no proof of this actually happening, but what then happened to the ‘Sword of the Lion’? The ‘Sword of the Lion’ is now in the hands of Cypher ‘The Fallen’, the most sworn fallen to be hunted by the Dark Angels. 2. As Cypher roams the galaxy with the Lion Sword, there is speculation as to his being the Lion’El. Cypher has roamed the imperium avoiding capture left and right as though a master tactician, similar to that of the Lion’El. Cypher managed to penetrate a Dark Angels stronghold and activate a Virus Bomb and steal gene-seed from his own era, 10,000 years old, and make his get away with loses from his own fallen, and effectively killing the entire deathwing team with a sweat. ‘Rumour has it that Cypher seeks to reforge the now broken Lion Sword and present it to the Emperor of Mankind, obtaining absolution and forgiveness’. 3. Cypher has no true name that anyone has heard of, so how can anyone prove he isn’t the Lion’El? No once in the entire universe knows of Cyphers true name nor do they know who he is or where he came from, but that he carries the ‘Sword of the Lion’ and a mystical C’tan Phase Blade. ‘Cypher was one of these Fallen Angels, but no one actually knows his true name’. 4. Could a space marine, just one, take on a C’tan alone, or without assistance? Is such a feat possible? I seriously doubt such an action could be possible unless of course that action was undertaken by that of a Primarch. Only one space marine has destroyed a C’tan and lived, Ultramarines Uriel Ventris, but he was assisted by a retinue of Space Marines and an Inquisitor. ‘One source, named the Heresy of Cognitive Dissonance by Cardinal Elyass Vallkante, mentions some form of knife used possibly by Cypher. It is said he struck a being of golden light and his weapon was absorbed into the being. Cypher carried a C'tan Phase Weapon but it was most likely lost in the body of a gold creature, the Necrodermis of the C'tan Deceiver, during battle’. ‘The final mystery known only to a very select few is that, buried even deeper within the Rock than Luther, Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for the time when he will be needed again, to lead the Dark Angels in a new and greater crusade. The Emperor is one who also knows of this secret’. ^ How would the Emperor know of this when the Emperor was long incapacitated upon the Golden Throne, and his psychic energies all but spent and used to keep the breach in the warp from opening up and letting deamonic forces spill upon the Imperium. And who are these ‘select’ few? By the way key word mystery, not true but not false. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 There is no such quote in 3rd or 4th. It is however in 2nd, the AoD Codex which clearly states that the Lion is in the Rock unknown to all and is tended by the Watchers. Can't quote page - am at work now - but will do so later this evening unless someone beats me to it. The Cypher thing the guy is preaching is nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 ahk, thanks, I knew it was there somewhere :) I know, thats what i tell him! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 previous thread on this subject: here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddles Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Add to the fact that the Lord Cypher was stationed on Caliban at the time of the fall. The reason no-one knows his name is because it was the order's tradition that the Lord Cypher loses his name when appointed. They are 2 separate individuals. A primarch stands a good foot taller than a regular astartes, so this would be instantly recognised. Cypher is just a very, very experienced astartes, from a time where tactical genius was abound within his legion, as opposed to the regulations of the codex astartes laid down by his spiritual nibs robot girlyman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 thanks for the replies. Ive been accused of no backing for my arguement, well, this thread will help I think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Unless you want a possible metaphysical explanation to Cypher being a construct of the Lion's urge for "something", I'd say he's just the cocky pistolero that succeeded the old man Cypher back in the ol' Order. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 And Cypher is not a giant, super-human Primarch. Kind of a rather big clue that Cypher isn't the Lion. Cypher certainly is not smaller because he's really the Lion, and a Lion who is is smaller because for the last 10,000 years he has failed to eat his recommended daily allowance of The Emperor's Finest Chewable VitaminsTM for young, growing lads. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Plenty of good arguments against Cypher being the Lion: Cypher is not the size of a primarch Cyphers rules was not that of a primarch (although he did have a great initiative, 8 i think. He is described to be so fast that even Abbadon is struggeling to follow his movements, which kind of makes him 40k´s answer to Lucky Luke, an awsome gunslinger faster than his own shadow :) ) The Lion is sleeping in the Rock, we KNOW this. Also, Cypher did not kill a squad of deathwing marines- he gave them a choice. They where hardly deathwing anyway. We dont know what happend to either Cypher or the C´tan, we only know that when the dust settled, both Cypher and C´tan was gone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 2. As Cypher roams the galaxy with the Lion Sword, there is speculation as to his being the Lion’El. Cypher has roamed the imperium avoiding capture left and right as though a master tactician, similar to that of the Lion’El. Cypher managed to penetrate a Dark Angels stronghold and activate a Virus Bomb and steal gene-seed from his own era, 10,000 years old, and make his get away with loses from his own fallen, and effectively killing the entire deathwing team with a sweat. I suppose you'referring to the "Angels of Darkness" incident. What happened there was that Cypher (once more) outsmarted the DAs. This is hardly a surprise, he's been doing this since ever. Otherwise he'd be captured by now. Does the guy have a point there somewhere? Also, Cypher did not kill a squad of deathwing marines - he gave them a choice. They where hardly deathwing anyway. Agreed. Although the latter sentence is not entirely relevant. Even if they were inexpirienced in the ways of the Fallen, Boreas (not to mention Nestor) were not. And still he got outsmarted. Cypher is an exceptional individual and has been around for millenia. This counts for a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It would also mean that the Lion would not be an agent of Chaos. Something we don't have any indication he was contemplating of doing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Also, Cypher did not kill a squad of deathwing marines - he gave them a choice. They where hardly deathwing anyway. Agreed. Although the latter sentence is not entirely relevant. Even if they were in-expirienced in the ways of the Fallen, Boreas (not to mention Nestor) was not. And still he got outsmarted. Cypher is an exceptional individual and has been around for millenia. This counts for a lot. Agreed that Cypher gave them a choice, but they absolutely WERE deathwing. Remember the 1st company is the lowest level of initiate into the deathwing. Both Boreas and Nestor had graduated out of the 1st company, they were both actually MORE than just deathwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 interesting thread, one random and maybe slightly off topic idea I had was that "reforging the sword" is a metaphor for the lion. At the fall when Caliban was destroyed and the lion struck down, his body and mind where split. Cypher being a chaos expect and trusted member of the lions council realised what had happened, grabbed the real lions sword and bolted. The lions mind being superior to that of a normal mortals held onto the sword/cypher as some kind of beacon driving him to return to the emperor and rejoin body and soul. This would explain why the fallen are attracted to cypher (they want to kill the lion, ask him for forgiveness etc), why he outsmarts the DA (hes helped by a primarch) and why his actions arguably strentghen the imperium. The theft of the geneseed would be motivated by the desire to reform the first legion and protect humanity when the lion returns. Finally, the reason he eludes/escapes capture is because the DA SGM knows about his real mission but cant trust anyone with that secret in case the chaos gods target him before the DA are ready.... Its got more holes than a block of swiss cheese but :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Obviously the the person spreading these rumors is or is working for Cypher and trying to get us of his trail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Also, Cypher did not kill a squad of deathwing marines - he gave them a choice. They where hardly deathwing anyway. Agreed. Although the latter sentence is not entirely relevant. Even if they were inexpirienced in the ways of the Fallen, Boreas (not to mention Nestor) were not. And still he got outsmarted. Cypher is an exceptional individual and has been around for millenia. This counts for a lot. I completly agree, it wasnt really relevant. No doubt Cypher could have tricked a normal deathwing squad if he so desired. Or the entire Dark Angels chapter for that matter, like in the Eye of terror campaign. Also, Cypher did not kill a squad of deathwing marines - he gave them a choice. They where hardly deathwing anyway. Agreed. Although the latter sentence is not entirely relevant. Even if they were in-expirienced in the ways of the Fallen, Boreas (not to mention Nestor) was not. And still he got outsmarted. Cypher is an exceptional individual and has been around for millenia. This counts for a lot. Agreed that Cypher gave them a choice, but they absolutely WERE deathwing. Remember the 1st company is the lowest level of initiate into the deathwing. Both Boreas and Nestor had graduated out of the 1st company, they were both actually MORE than just deathwing. In my opinion, they where not. Not official anyway, only Ezekiel may grant entry to the Inner Circle as it is him alone who can judge the weak from the strong. Boreas was overstepping his authority here, and he knew it. I liked him in the Purging of Kadillus, but he kinda fails as an interrogator-chaplain. Quite off topic though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3005953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/Untitled-1.jpg For the specifics anyhow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hahahaha, I was about post! Ninja'd big time! :) Anyway, it's Codex AOD p.14. I think the title is very fitting. Just have to love 2nd Ed. stuff... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The throne is failing... I think it's time he returned.... In the next codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The throne is failing... I think it's time he returned.... In the next codex... Hey, why not? The Lion is Warhammer 40,000's King Arthur, sleeping until he's most needed. But he is not Cypher. Somebody beat up the fool tellin' them lies. Primarchs in 6th Ed. could be fun.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 candleshoes and the Captain already pointed out where to find the information. I've never seen this retconned, so I'm assuming it's still canon in the 40k universe. If your friend still needs proof, I guess one of us could scan the page and post it, but I think that breaks one of the forum rules. However, if you ever have an inkling to read part of our Legion's history, pick up the old Angels of Death codex for yourself. It's an awesome book to read in and of itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I would love to, if I can ever find it. Be assured, if I discover it I will buy it, no questions asked (unless its an insane price, lol) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 All you have to do is look; even Amazon lists the book: http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Death-Warhamm...4620&sr=8-1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy 0f Spades Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 So.... what if our new codex changes the fluff and makes Cypher the Lion...? You know... the designer pulls a Matt Ward on us... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I think BL would have something to say about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248158-the-lion-is-cypher/#findComment-3006371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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