riddles Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have finally got round to reading these (well, i've just started fallen angels). One thing is bugging me, and it will royally pee me off if i don't get an explanation. There is NO explanation as to why the Lion sends the Calibanites back. Specifically - Zahariel, who the Lion has spoken to personally over the bond they shared because of his quest. Zahariel ends the suffering of the membrancer on Sorsha and the librarian's plan works, yet the Lion is staring at him on the way back and sends him home. No explanation whatsoever. I can understand sending Luthor back because Luthor probably admitted what he did in the embarkation bay, but it just makes no goddamn sense. Does this get covered in the rest of fallen angels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I thought about this a while back, and an idea popped up on my head. The Lion was keeping his trump cards in reserve, guarding over Caliban should the darkness within it rise again. Think about it. Would he -really- forgive Luther if he had spilled the beans about his fratricidal plans, aborted as they were? Would he intentionally put those he had genuine misgivings right in his HQ? If he had known there was a chance of betrayal, he probably would've never had returned to Caliban to restore his forces to begin with. Hence his wrath when his trust on his "trump cards" was woefully misplaced. Being "scary" was just a subconscious mannerism, like walking around stealthily was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddles Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I understand why Luthor says they have shamed themselves and their crusade is over - he feels his own guilt. But the Lion sends Zahariel and the Terran librarian home too, yet nothing in the book indicates what they could have done wrong other than potentially unnerve the Lion with their psychic power. Which in later stories (i learn from this forum), he uses his damn self! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think it was to watch over the Deamon in the heart of Caliban. who better to moniter Chaos than the Librarians, and one of them the most trusted Librarian? and, who better to lead it all than your own brother and closest confidant and comrade? The Man who had been by your side since the start? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddles Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 dammit! haven't read that far yet. I should finish fallen angels before i read this thread any more! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 yes, read the novel, sorry, should have spoilered it, my bad :D I apologise, its late Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Apparently new things will be revealed in the coming book about the primarchs. I dont think there will be any final answers yet, but it will be dark. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Apparently new things will be revealed in the coming book about the primarchs. I dont think there will be any final answers yet, but it will be dark. :cuss That's one I'm looking forwards to :( Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 But the Lion sends Zahariel and the Terran librarian home too, yet nothing in the book indicates what they could have done wrong other than potentially unnerve the Lion with their psychic power. Which in later stories (i learn from this forum), he uses his damn self! I know there is a quote that touches a bit on this from the new Novella. “…all psykers for that matter, caused him pause; he was not well disposed to those who might see him in ways that normal men did not. Only the Emperor did he trust with such knowledge.” It really plays into the suspicion and ... not paranoia... that is the realm of Curze and Peturabo... but difficulty of judgement. To think that a psyker could be involved in any way, even alleged, with a plot against everything the Lion holds dear, could very well be cause enough to send him packing. Even if there is no evidence or grounding in reality, the Lion will always pursuit the course that he deems best (often with outside council, though at this moment that seems all but shattered) even if there is risk or danger involved. It is partly why he was so successful in his strategies as a general, but often why his peers like Russ claim that he leaves allied troops exposed to take far more losses then would ever be necessary, in order to win in his own way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3005999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I thought it was fairly obvious why the Lion sent back Luther. Luther almost goes through with allowing the Saroshi to kill the Lion. The two subsequently speak, and Mitchell Scanlon's description of that scene strongly implies that Luther confessed to the Lion what he almost did. Where things start getting confusing is Zahariel and Israfahel's exiles to Caliban. Zahariel's exile could be easily attributed to not coming clean about Luther's role in the near-assassination. But Israhafel's? It makes no sense. So the question becomes, did he send them back because their efforts against the Saroshi daemon showed they could help defend against a similar evil in Caliban? If so, then why didn't he tell them? Well, it could very well be because Cypher is already there, and, seeing as how he's a former Knight of Lupus, he's already well-knowledged in the situation facing Caliban. Plus, he has the library of the Knights of Lupus - the most extensive collection of data on this matter. That's the only way the Lion could have planned to use Zahariel and Israfahel on Caliban. But if Cypher is meant to be the Lion's agent and relay information to Zahariel and Israhafel (heck, throw in Luther if you want) if trouble with the daemonic taint arises, why does he never actually do so? In fact, Mike Lee's book implies the opposite: that he actually helped Luther along with his corruption, and did so in a way that kept Zahariel and Israhafel out of the loop! About the only way this can be justified is if he somehow decided he knew better than the Lion and decided to aim Luther in using supernatural/sorcerous means to combat the daemon. But that doesn't make sense, either. If Cypher was a bad guy, then why did he always lead Fallen who weren't Chaos Space Marines in 3E? Did he become repentant about what he did? And if so, why did he lose that theme and become a villain for 4E's "Eye of Terror" campaign? I don't buy the idea that Cypher "helped the Imperium in his own way", either. Yeah, his efforts at subversion led to Imperial faith getting stronger, but that was thanks to the efforts of Imperial trying to fight back - not thanks to him. His efforts led to countless deaths, chaos, and destruction. Even worse, the campaign newsletters state that, thanks to Cypher, the Dark Angels were pulled away from the main theatre of operations, which led to yet more losses for the Imperium and perhaps cost them victory, as well. There are just too many inconsistencies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3006037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mage 257 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think it was to watch over the Deamon in the heart of Caliban. who better to moniter Chaos than the Librarians, and one of them the most trusted Librarian? and, who better to lead it all than your own brother and closest confidant and comrade? The Man who had been by your side since the start? +1 on this comment dude, that was my thought on it also, it's quite weird that as a Dark Angels player I'm not a big fan of these 2 books, don't get me wrong they are good but I've not found myself as immersed in these books than the others of the series (Just finished Deliverance Lost......... one word: Wowsers.) and I never really grew attached to the characters in it either, with the exception of Lion'El, simply because he's Lion'El :) I would love a bit of a clear up on the whole edict of nikea/librarian scenario ongoing throughout the Horus Heresy books as I have always found it confusing that they are acceptable in some books and some forces have knowledge of the warp etc but some don't. I know quite a few of the books are set at different times/era's etc but a general sweep up of who knows what would be awesome :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3006050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Edict of Nikea says no to Librarians and all psykers using their powers. However, this will be changed at some stage in the novels, probably by Guillieman and/or The Lion in the reorganization as they are the best defence against Daemons and Sorcerers of Chaos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3006108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Edict of Nikea says no to Librarians and all psykers using their powers. However, this will be changed at some stage in the novels, probably by Guillieman and/or The Lion in the reorganization as they are the best defence against Daemons and Sorcerers of Chaos Read Part 1 of The Lion in the latest issue of Hammer and Bolter to further develop this idea.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248160-descent-of-angels-fallen-angels/#findComment-3006118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.