Purgation Squads get cheap NFH and NDH

[Gentlemanloser]

Unlike Strikes/Interceptors, Purgation Squads get reduced costs on NFH, and NDH.

 

Thier NDH cost the same a Purifiers, and thier NFH are only a point more than thier Pruifier bretheren.

 

I'm sure this cost break is becuase they're designated as a 'ranged' unit, but they're not really any longer ranged than Strikes are.

 

While they have the same statline, which isn't great for CC, is there any way we could take advantage of this? At least the Justicar gets 2 attacks. :huh:

 

But then, why bother with Purgations Squads with CC upgrades, when you could just use Purifiers? Maybe if you've not taken Crowe, and you've already got 3 Squads of CC orientated Purifiers?

 

Hmmm.

 

10, 25 point 1 attack NDH GKs? LoL! ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

Hmm...

 

3 Ven Dreads, 3 Storm Ravens, 3 Purgation squads... add some Termies or Paladins and Draigo or a character of choice? :huh:

[Gentlemanloser]

How would you load out the Purg's? NFH or NDHs?

 

And why not normal Dreads and Puri's instead? :/

[Inquisitor Fox]

In more of a cityfight scenario or terrain heavy table, the ability to ignore LOS with the Purgation squad could be invaluable. Venerable dreads are nearly indestructable, perhaps you're going for endurance. I'd give them a fairly normal loadout, mostly because it works <_< As to why I'd run the list? Honestly I have no idea... it worked as an example? :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purgation squad upgrades cost exactly the same as Strike and Interceptors.

 

As you mention, Purifiers are better in every conceivable way, and have the added caveat of being an Elite choice, not a Heavy Support (and thus not competing with our PsyDreads and Dreadknights).

 

Mind you, for pure hilarity, in smaller games you could always go triple Purgator squads with max psycannon in Rhinos. Roll into range, disembark, unleash hell.

[Gentlemanloser]

Purgation squad upgrades cost exactly the same as Strike and Interceptors.

 

Not in my codex they're not! ^_^

 

It threw me as well.

 

Strikes and Interceptors pay (is this allowed?) 5 points for a NFH, and 10 for a NDH.

 

Purgation Squads pay 3 for a NFH and 5 for a NDH.

[DinoDoc]

1 NDH might be all I would do. If you're throwing Purgation Squads into CC on purpose you're doing it wrong.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not in my codex they're not!

 

It threw me as well.

 

Strikes and Interceptors pay (is this allowed?) 5 points for a NFH, and 10 for a NDH.

 

Purgation Squads pay 3 for a NFH and 5 for a NDH.

 

Huh, I stand corrected. It's a bit bizarre they give the discount to a shooty Heavy Support unit, not the Strikes or Interceptors.

 

Still, my original point stands. Purifier halberds are even cheaper, and the same squad layout (4 psycannons, 6 normal guys) costs the same with no combat upgrades. When you add in combat upgrades, Purifiers get 5 halberds and a hammer for the same price as 5 halberds on the Purgators.

 

1 NDH might be all I would do. If you're throwing Purgation Squads into CC on purpose you're doing it wrong.

 

I think you mean 'using Purgation squads'. Purifiers are better 100% of the time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Let's hope something like "Fire Sweep" actually exists in the next edition. :P

 

Then it's 4 Incerator / NFH urgation Squads all the Way! :)

 

5 points for a NDH is cheap though. Maybe it's worth taking a few more on them, even though they're only 1A.

[AnImA8]

The pricing of wargear and items tells you a bit about what GW envisions their role on the battlefield to be. Notice that the Teleport Homer for the Justicar is also the cheapest you can get it ANYWHERE in the codex. This combined with the discounts on the Incinerators and their synergy with Astral Aim makes me think that a squad with 4x incinerators and a teleport homer could be used to clear an LZ for your Strikes/Interceptors/Dreadknights to teleport onto. The discounted NFH's and NDH's could be used to help the unit with staying power since they need to get so close to achieve their goal. I'm not necessarily saying that this is the optimal way to look at the squad, just that I've been noticing that GW seems to really like giving us incentives to make certain units play a certain way ^_^

[Gentlemanloser]

Agreed.

 

But they also cost on how effective an upgrade is to a unit.

 

Like Psilencers being free on the mobile Interceptors (who you don't plan on keeping still to fire those Psilencers), but Incinerators being the most expensive, and probably the 'ideal' weapon for a mobile force that's jumpinginto the face of the enemy.

 

Maybe the CC wepaons have been discoutned, because Purgation units are designed primarily as fire support, and you'd need an incentive to *ever* take a CC upgrade on them. ^_^

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Let's hope something like "Fire Sweep" actually exists in the next edition.

 

Then it's 4 Incerator / NFH urgation Squads all the Way!

 

5 points for a NDH is cheap though. Maybe it's worth taking a few more on them, even though they're only 1A.

 

Meh. Purifiers have 2A base if you want to hammer spam, plus 'Cleansing Flame' and the same free incinerators. The only downside there is that you have to take the full 10-man squad, whereas Purgation squads can be expendable 5-man with 4 burninators.

 

The pricing of wargear and items tells you a bit about what GW envisions their role on the battlefield to be. Notice that the Teleport Homer for the Justicar is also the cheapest you can get it ANYWHERE in the codex. This combined with the discounts on the Incinerators and their synergy with Astral Aim makes me think that a squad with 4x incinerators and a teleport homer could be used to clear an LZ for your Strikes/Interceptors/Dreadknights to teleport onto. The discounted NFH's and NDH's could be used to help the unit with staying power since they need to get so close to achieve their goal. I'm not necessarily saying that this is the optimal way to look at the squad, just that I've been noticing that GW seems to really like giving us incentives to make certain units play a certain way

 

Yes and no. They really try to push psilencers on you throughout the codex but no one is that silly. Making incinerators so damn expensive on Interceptors really hurts their ability to take combat upgrades (as they are already expensive just for incinerator harassment/backfield assaults on shooty units). The costings are good on the already good units (Paladins, Terminators, Purifiers), and they just went really weird on the other squads.

My personal feeling is that the Strikes, Purgators and Interceptors should've gotten 2pt halberds and falchions, leave hammers at 5pts and warding staves need to be cheaper across the board (they're just not even taken in current armies, except on Librarians).

 

Agreed.

 

But they also cost on how effective an upgrade is to a unit.

 

Like Psilencers being free on the mobile Interceptors (who you don't plan on keeping still to fire those Psilencers), but Incinerators being the most expensive, and probably the 'ideal' weapon for a mobile force that's jumpinginto the face of the enemy.

 

Maybe the CC wepaons have been discoutned, because Purgation units are designed primarily as fire support, and you'd need an incentive to *ever* take a CC upgrade on them.

 

Which is dumb. I mean, they know we will take incinerators, as they are the best choice. Then they just jack the price up to discourage it? Derp. It's like when they raised the cost of plasma for Crisis suits; it didn't stop people taking it at all, it just gimped the unit cost of the squad.

Dude, they would have to make Purgator close-combat upgrades free or 1-2pts for it to be even worth considering. Remembering that if you're taking a full 10-man squad, Purifiers beat you for cost and Force Org oppertunity cost, and with a very small investment their lead increases dramatically (adding 4-5 halberds and 1-2 hammers). So, the only cost efficient way to field Purgators is as 5-man dakka squads, in which case the only model not carrying a psycannon/incinerator is the Justicar (and he's taking hammer 90% of the time).

 

Of course, this is all sort of moot, because Purgators themselves don't work as intended (just like how Devastators are the unicorns of Space Marine armies). The combat upgrades don't really matter, they needed to at least make the ranged weapon options the same price as other squads, and make 'Astral Aim' not completely pointless (handing out free cover saves means psycannons don't work as intended, and the situations where you don't have LOS within incinerator range are very unlikely). It's painful because they were on the verge of making Purgators a worthwhile choice. It's kind of like with Crowe, if they changed 1-2 lines of their unit entry/special rules, they are instantly better.

 

That said, I still take the 5-man Trogdor unit in a Rhino for hilarity. My regular opponents are infantry heavy, so they tend to do ok (Templars and Orks in particular hate mechanised heavy flamers dropping down on them).

[Gentlemanloser]

Which is dumb.

 

Yup, especially as it's not across the board.

 

But Incinerators are more 'worth' to Interceptors, so cost more.

 

And Falchions are just /meh. I can honesly see Assault guns being +1A in CC, as that woud explain the high cost of Falchions (4A Puri's on the charge!) and the losw cost of Halberd (2H FTL?).

 

I stil feel the GK wrist mounted Storm Bolters should allow them to use them in conjunction with 2H CC weapons, and that NDH and NFS should also be 2H CC Weapons ( could forgive Falchions not giving +1A for 2 CCW if Stormbolters give that, as it would be redundant...)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yup, especially as it's not across the board.

 

But Incinerators are more 'worth' to Interceptors, so cost more.

 

And Falchions are just /meh. I can honesly see Assault guns being +1A in CC, as that woud explain the high cost of Falchions (4A Puri's on the charge!) and the losw cost of Halberd (2H FTL?).

 

I stil feel the GK wrist mounted Storm Bolters should allow them to use them in conjunction with 2H CC weapons, and that NDH and NFS should also be 2H CC Weapons ( could forgive Falchions not giving +1A for 2 CCW if Stormbolters give that, as it would be redundant...)

 

Well True Grit, if it had been carried over, would've made us better than Grey Hunters. I think as a balancing factor (ie our Tactical squad analogue has to suck just as much in combat as other Marines), we just weren't allowed to have.

The problem is, as you point out, falchions are worthless on even the combat units (as bizarrely, they actually cost points on Terminators who get free hammer/halberd upgrades, and insane amounts when Purifiers get dirt-cheap halberd/hammer). I think GW often overestimates how good bolters actually are.

[AnImA8]

Agreed.

 

But they also cost on how effective an upgrade is to a unit.

 

Like Psilencers being free on the mobile Interceptors (who you don't plan on keeping still to fire those Psilencers), but Incinerators being the most expensive, and probably the 'ideal' weapon for a mobile force that's jumpinginto the face of the enemy.

 

Maybe the CC wepaons have been discoutned, because Purgation units are designed primarily as fire support, and you'd need an incentive to *ever* take a CC upgrade on them.

 

Yes and no. They really try to push psilencers on you throughout the codex but no one is that silly. Making incinerators so damn expensive on Interceptors really hurts their ability to take combat upgrades (as they are already expensive just for incinerator harassment/backfield assaults on shooty units). The costings are good on the already good units (Paladins, Terminators, Purifiers), and they just went really weird on the other squads.

My personal feeling is that the Strikes, Purgators and Interceptors should've gotten 2pt halberds and falchions, leave hammers at 5pts and warding staves need to be cheaper across the board (they're just not even taken in current armies, except on Librarians).

 

I don't think either of these are necessarily true. I tend to ignore Psilencers in my analysis of the codex because they just simply suck. I think GW understood this implicitly and wrote it into the codex in the form of massive discounts, so I'd rather ignore them for the purpose of any kind of critical discussion about weapon/unit role. And is it truly the case that they up the price on weapons they think are best or most ideal on the units? I don't think so because this would suggest that Incinerators are best on Strikes, which I wholly disagree with. Or that Psycannons are best on Terminators; which seems pretty clearly false to me since they cost more than 2 Psycannons on Strikes, have the same shots on the move, and have half the shots standing still.

 

For this reason I don't think Incinerators are the best on Interceptors. I think Interceptors actually want to use their mobility to stay away at the 19-23" sweet spot, or poke at rear/side armor with their Psycannons (could even blow them away from the front really lol.) Likewise I think Terminators want the discounted Incinerators because they're the close assault units (again as seen by the discounted halberds/hammers) and also need the template to help them clear away hordes that would normally bog them down.

 

So again, the costs of the Purgation squads upgrades would rather point me in the direction of using 4 incinerators than anything else, and with Astral Aim I always go to abusing them with tanks or other "mobile terrain" that could block LoS. But as you say Reclusiarch Darius, even if this is what GW intends of the Purgation Squad, that doesn't necessarily make them any good, or more worthwhile than the myriad other good HS options we have.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't think either of these are necessarily true. I tend to ignore Psilencers in my analysis of the codex because they just simply suck. I think GW understood this implicitly and wrote it into the codex in the form of massive discounts, so I'd rather ignore them for the purpose of any kind of critical discussion about weapon/unit role. And is it truly the case that they up the price on weapons they think are best or most ideal on the units? I don't think so because this would suggest that Incinerators are best on Strikes, which I wholly disagree with. Or that Psycannons are best on Terminators; which seems pretty clearly false to me since they cost more than 2 Psycannons on Strikes, have the same shots on the move, and have half the shots standing still.

 

For this reason I don't think Incinerators are the best on Interceptors. I think Interceptors actually want to use their mobility to stay away at the 19-23" sweet spot, or poke at rear/side armor with their Psycannons (could even blow them away from the front really lol.) Likewise I think Terminators want the discounted Incinerators because they're the close assault units (again as seen by the discounted halberds/hammers) and also need the template to help them clear away hordes that would normally bog them down.

 

Which begs the question, who shoehorned in that weapon? Matt would've never written the psilencer rules, they're just too abysmal to be his handiwork. Even against Daemons (the one army they're supposed to be taken against), psycannons and even incinerators are superior in every conceivable way. Not even the 'lololol gatling' DK version is worth taking.

 

I think they do plan point costs to some degree. Perhaps not always very clearly, or logically (our codex is pretty well costed TBH, other armies have atrocious and capricious price structures that invalidate 50-70% of their army book choices from competitive games), but they do follow a structure.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean that GW doesn't plan their pricing. They clearly though incinerators were so OP on Interceptors, they jacked up the price until only MSU squads were worth taking it on.

FYI, nothing else has the damage multiplier effect, or matches role, like the incinerator. Psycannons are designed for semi-static units, or models with Relentless. If you're a jump infantry dude, taking a Heavy weapon is silly (psycannons are not worth their points in 2 shot mode). If you want fire support, Purifiers do it so much better, and with a Rhino they're almost as mobile anyway. Interceptors are designed to zip up a flank and beat backfield units like Lootas or Manticores. Hammer and incinerator are hands down the best tools for the job, psycannons are very cost inefficient on Interceptors.

 

With Terminators, they wanted to make Purifiers relevant, so they built Terminators as A: close-combat blob of Doom (notice they are the only unit aside from Paladins that get the Bro Banner) and B: some fire support. Whereas Purifiers are A: quad psycannon hilarity and B: only wear power armour but cheaper and better at countering horde infantry.

If they gave Terminators quad psycannon, they would make Paladins and Purifiers worse as unit choices, if not entirely irrelevant.

Incinerators are a waste on Terminators, only Green Tide or Guard blobs (neither of which you're likely to be fighting, unless your opponent is beyond desperate and has nothing else to throw at you) would give them problems in combat in terms of tarpit. They desperately need the psycannons for popping transports to get at the meat inside. Also, Knights can NEVER EVER have enough psycannons, so by default you should be spamming them everywhere you can.

 

So again, the costs of the Purgation squads upgrades would rather point me in the direction of using 4 incinerators than anything else, and with Astral Aim I always go to abusing them with tanks or other "mobile terrain" that could block LoS. But as you say Reclusiarch Darius, even if this is what GW intends of the Purgation Squad, that doesn't necessarily make them any good, or more worthwhile than the myriad other good HS options we have.

 

I've done the 'disembark wrong side, flame over tank' trick on people before. It is beyond hilarious, especially on hordes when you get a good angle and stack hits from each template.

I'm afraid, as I said before, GW just falls for the Devastator fallacy every time with Marines (they do it in other xenos armies too as well). They have this phobia for foot infantry with multiple heavy weapons; either they have to have no save and terribad statline to be cheap/reasonable price (Guard heavy weapon teams, Lootaz), or if they wear power armour they have to make the heavy weapons double the base squad price to be fielded (Codex: Ultramarines is the biggest offender here, Blood Angels is probably the first time anyone has even seen a Devastator squad worth fielding, and yet Stormravens still beat them). At least the Trogdor-pattern Purgators are semi-reasonable for their points, imagine the horror had they given us 'heavy' versions of our staples. It would've been cool and novel for like a week (oooh look, the heavy incinerator/6 shot psycannon, up to 4!11!), but they would charge over 9,000 pts per weapon upgrade.