New cultist jumps in with controversial topic

[Sorcerer Shu]

First of all, I'd like to say a big hello to everyone who reads this post.

 

Now to the topic of my first post. Many of you have probably taken one look at this topic, groaned and shaken thier heads in despair. But bare with me for a minute.

I've been doing a bit of reasearch on the background of the Tsons and, given Tzeentchs' strong presence and Prospero and the confusion that would have surrounded the Burning of Prospero, it may be possible to create some strong (hope fully awesome) fluff on a small, cultist reliant, Tsons based war band that broke away around the time Prospero was attacked.

Currently all I've got is some scribbled notes and I've already run into some grey areas. I was hoping that I could get some help from some Chaos and Tsons veterans to help strengthen the fluff. With any luck I should have some good solid fluff at least drafted in a few months that I'll be able to post.

 

I look forward to hearing everyone's replies. So, with out further ado, here are my first questions:

 

1: What was the predominate armour type in the Tsons Legion in the lead up to the Heresy?

 

2: Is the process of creating new marines essentially the same for Chaos as it is for the Imperium?

 

3: (this one is a timeline question, my apologies) Was the Burning of Prospero pre- or post-Istvaan V?

 

Thanks

[Olis]

Hail and welcome, brother!

 

1: What was the predominate armour type in the Tsons Legion in the lead up to the Heresy?

 

Iirc it would be Mk4 battle plate, as with many other Legions in the lead up to the Horus Heresy.

 

2: Is the process of creating new marines essentially the same for Chaos as it is for the Imperium?

 

They could use the same methods, providing they had uncorrupted gene-seed, which (again iirc) until the 13th Black Crusade they didn't (at least not in quantities larger than a mere handful). Even then, I believe the gene-seed available is Abaddon's to own as it was gifted to him (stop me if I'm faffing this up, lads).

 

3: (this one is a timeline question, my apologies) Was the Burning of Prospero pre- or post-Istvaan V?

 

Post-Isstvan V. In the Outcast Dead messages of the Massacre were being received by Terra before Magnus's warning.

 

Let's hope I got that all right. :)

[Sorcerer Shu]

Cheers!

Any help is much appreciated.

[Excessus]

#1: The Thousand Sons should also have a lot of Mk II and Mk III armours and "heresy" armours besides Mk IV. They were after all the target of a pretty awful cleansing at the hands of the wolves, their equipment should be pretty battered and worn by the end of it making them go back to older armours due to being denied "upgrades" and replacements because of their exodus from Prospero. Much of the artwork depicts them in Mk II, III or IV armours.

 

#2: The process of marinating a person is essentially the same, though where the loyalists use precision and exactness, chaos forces uses brute force and sees the survivors of the more brutal marinating as "worthy" of being marinated. Gene-seed are not only taken from the legions, Fabulous Bill creates new as well and they steal from loyalist facilities.

 

#3: The timing of the attack on Prospero is debated over at warseer.

[Sorcerer Shu]

Thanks for the info. It's really started to clear up some of the hazy patches.

 

As for the geneseed, the brutality and the fact that the geenseed has to be stolen should fit my warband nicely.

[Kol Saresk]

I thught the Mk IV was only delivered by the Mechanicum to Horus' allies?

 

@Olisredan: That part is a little confusing on the gene-seed. Not from you, just from the fluff. Because Storm of Iron is where they get the gene-seed but in Dead Sky, Black Sun Honsou recalls a moment where they fought and beat some of the Black Legion for at least some pf the gene-seed. Can't remember the quantity that was mentioned.

[*Furyou Miko]

I know it's not the point, but I just have this mental image of a Scout boiling in a nice cider and garlic sauce on a low heat... marinating. ^^

[Olis]

I thught the Mk IV was only delivered by the Mechanicum to Horus' allies?

 

Not quite - alot of it was redirected to Horus and his defectors but the loyalists did get some leading up to the HH. It was just that during the Heresy the rebels had fresh stocks and supplies of it whereas the loyalists were stuck having to create the less technologically advanced stopgap Mk5 suit. The Mk5 itself was a bit of a mongrel but, as far as I know, there wasn't one standard Heresy suit, there was several iterations (such as the Ultramarines version called Praetor armour).

 

@Olisredan: That part is a little confusing on the gene-seed. Not from you, just from the fluff. Because Storm of Iron is where they get the gene-seed but in Dead Sky, Black Sun Honsou recalls a moment where they fought and beat some of the Black Legion for at least some pf the gene-seed. Can't remember the quantity that was mentioned.

 

Hmm. It's been a while since I read either book. I'm afraid without rereading them I can't shed light on this. :lol:

[Eetion]

Thanks for the info. It's really started to clear up some of the hazy patches.

 

As for the geneseed, the brutality and the fact that the geenseed has to be stolen should fit my warband nicely.

 

Im going to throw a curve ball here.

 

We know that the Thousand Sons had originally 10 companies and 1 being destroyed. It can be presumed that they had a store of gene seed from this. Would this have been affected when the Rubric occured. Is there a supply of Thousand Sons geneseed ready for implantation as well as stealing?

[Kol Saresk]

: huh : Never thought about that before. Well I guess it would depend on just what the rubric affected. It was made to affect everything on the Planet of Sorcerers, then as long as it was still on Prospero and managed to survive the Extermination, then it should be good. If the Rubric was made to target those who carried the gene-seed of Magnus, well then there would have to be a question of whether it's range reached as far as Prospero. Depending on Prospero's relative position to the Eye.

[Olis]

I think I must point out that as of recent fluff (Prospero Burns) the Thousand Sons' gene-seed is incredibly unstable. It would be likely considered unviable as a fresh source of gene-seed, imho.

[Sorcerer Shu]

HMMMMMMM..... the instability of the gene does throw a small spanner in the works.

All well, just have to work around it, maybe the war band uses psykers who have already developed powers and implants them with what ever gene seed they've managed to nick

[Sorcerer Shu]

On the subject of the armour, I had a thought; my war band will only be a small one, divided up between a few, small, constantly moving cruisers. Such an environment would not allow for anything of great quality or durabilty, given that they would more than likely be working with scrap. Now, being an ork player I know that scrap does not get you a 3+ save, so instead of the armour itself providing the protection, I was wondering if it would be viable to have a very minor daemon bound to the armour in a similar fashion to a daemon weapon, and it was that daemon that gave the armour its durability?

[Olis]

I'd advise something more along the lines of salvage. Everybody does it - loyalists and traitors. In that vein you would have free rein to bastardise any mk of armour you wished - whatever looks good, really. ^_^

[Crimson Hawk]

So, your questions, and the answers;

1Mk4 Maximus. Check the cover of A Thousand Sons

2It varies. Some corrupt existing marines from other Chapters (Red Corsairs& blood Gorgons spring to mind) while others probably have their own recruiting grounds far from Imperial eyes

3Post.

Hope that answers your queries

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, every other source regarding the Razing has it pre-Istvaan, including Horus Heresy novels written after TOD, such as Deliverance Lost. Other books also reinforce the pre-Istvaan timing, such as Aurelian, which features an already-Razed Magnus less than a week after Istvaan. Apparently Graham's got some master plan to tie it all together, but the only theory I can see working is that the Emperor knew Magnus was going to do something, so sent the Wolves to Prospero pre-Istvaan, Magnus sent his message, the Wolves arrived, Prospero is razed, Istvaan happens, and then Magnus' message arrives.

Even then, that goes against most other sources, including incredibly recent sources, such as the above-mentioned Aurelian. There simply isn't enough time for Magnus to have had the Wolves get deployed, travel to Prospero, burn it down, and then for him to escape, only to have a conversation with Magnus mere days after Istvaan. Sure, there's the possibility of Warp-time-shenanigans, but they should have hinted towards that, rather than act like nothing was wrong.

[Xenith]

#3: The timing of the attack on Prospero is debated over at warseer.

 

How is this even debated?

 

-Magnus warns the emperor that horus is the baddie.

 

-Emperor believes Magnus is, sends wolves to capture him

-Horus subverts wolves to kill Magnus (at this point, Horus still believed to be loyal)

-wolves burn Prospero,

-Istvaan 3, Emperor thinks "uh oh", sends legions to bring horus in

 

If istvaan 5 had happened before the burning of Prospero, then why would the emperor not have recalled the wolves/redirected to istvaan.

 

This is all occluding the vagaries of warp travel/the wolves being douchebags.

[Ethrion]

...the wolves being douchebags.

Here here! ;)

[Excessus]

#3: The timing of the attack on Prospero is debated over at warseer.

How is this even debated?

Maybe because in The Outcast Dead Istvaan has already happened when Magnus arrive at terra...

[Xenith]

#3: The timing of the attack on Prospero is debated over at warseer.

How is this even debated?

Maybe because in The Outcast Dead Istvaan has already happened when Magnus arrive at terra...

Istvaan III or the drop site massacres?

[Evil eyeball]

Its funny because there is some rogue trader era fluff about the Flight of the Eisenstein which says there were 21 Thousand Sons aboard the Eisenstein when Garo flew it away from Istvan.... Odviously this has been retcon'd (twice FYI) since then.

[Jareddm]

I realize this is an old topic, but I thought I'd mention that the instability of the TSons may not have been inherent in their geneseed. It's possible that it was a timed occurrence, set up by Tzeetch, that ran its course after the fall of Magnus and the rubric. At least this is the explanation given on all the discussions about the Blood Ravens.

[*Furyou Miko]

The problem with that is that the flesh change occurred before they ever came close to Prospero in the first place.

[Jareddm]

But that has nothing to do with being affected by Tzeentch.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Similar to how the Blood Ravens have no place in this discussion :)