I hate large games.

[Grey Mage]

So I just need to get this out here- I dont like large games. It takes alot of the fun and the challenge out of the game in my opinion- Once you get past 1500pts it gets progressively easier to make giant point-sinking hammer units, and alot of players seem to use them in a point-n-click fashion wich speeds up the game but reduces the tactical challenge. Even when theres a good player behind this unit- or two units in larger games even- it often becomes a pattern of kill the hammer-unit and mop up what you need afterwords.

 

But Ive moved recently, and the standard game size has switched from the 1k-1250 range all the way up to 2k overnight. Much of my forces are still in storage in Montana, but the battlefields of Portland seem ripe for the picking.

 

So I ask you my brethren, what do you find most useful in your metas? Im still not looking to drop huge points on units, but I feel Ill need something heftier than my trusty GH packs soon. Fast moving or Drop-podding is a focus here, but Id like to hear about anything you think pertinent.

 

Also, do you like larger games? 1850-2500? Why? Im really quite curious, and Id like to hear your opinions. Maybe I can find more joy on these larger battlefields than I think.

[Emperor's Scourge]

You know...Thunder Wolf Cavalry came out yesterday...nudge nudge.

 

They were made for large point games. They're usually a bad idea in anything under 1850.

 

I enjoy games of all points sizes. Switching things up keeps your army fresh and avoids playing the same two or three lists until burn out sets in. The freedom of having a larger pool of points to play with encourages experimentation rather than the same Rune Priest/Grey Hunter/Rhino/etcetcetc list.(not saying that's what you play it's just an example)

 

Plus, the reverse is true for your opponents. They have more points to play with. It makes the army on the other side of the table a lot scarier in most cases.

 

I understand your concerns, but if your opponent is a deathstar point and clicker then they'll be playing that way no matter what points value they're saddled with.

[Vor]

I hate small games.

 

It's too easy when all you have to focus on is a few enemy units. In a larger points game there are, generally anyway, far more threats that you have to deal with, and you have far more options to play with yourself.

 

I've not actually played a 40k game this year (well, maybe one or two (aside from Apoc)), my friends and I have just got into fantasy. But I think our normal points level is 2500, lowest we generally go unless it's a campaign or such is 2k.

 

I won't refuse to play a small game. I just won't enjoy it as much.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

Have to agree with Vor, think youve got it really backward. The smaller games really mean a hammer unit can just destroy anything without any real opportunity to attack back if you havent brought the right list. At larger levels you usually have an answer to everything and it means the more expensive or specialised armies can cover all bases without having to worry about leaving yourself open.

[dswanick]

I'm with you, G M. Several years ago my entire 40k collection went through a flood. It's been a long haul getting them back into anything resembing fighting trim. And in that time I moved from a small city in CNY to one of the larger metro areas (Binghamton to Syracuse). It still amazes me the change in the meta I've experienced. Before we played all sizes of games, but invariably all my regular opponents were hobby/fluff gamers first and competative second. Since the move all the players in this new area seem to be WAAC/competative first, last, and always ("2k+ or leave!"). Fortunately, I've become something of the unofficial LGS new-player/introduction opponent, introducing new, prospective players to the game and teaching them the ropes as their collection grows. As a result I'm playing more small points games (<1,250) against players who still have the "this unit is SO COOL!" mentality. I'm hoping I can keep at least some of them in that frame of mind while shepherding them past the tourney stage and right into my campaign/City Fight/Planetary Assault/Spearhead/Apocalypse games.

[Warhead01]

Grey Mage. I know were you are coming from. For as many years most og my group and myself have been playing we have changed our game size from time to time fr our own sanity.My own rituals of army list building had at one time been to build 1K and then add units in 500 point increments. giving me my reliable base and then some as games got larger. No doubt nothing earth shakingly new.

Before our local shop closed 2K to 2500 was preferred by most gamers and the turnies showed it as well.

But with out any comp score point and click seems to show it's face more. Seems more annoying when those points are all spent on blood crushers....

For me it boiled down to just planning games n advance and being ready for larger games as well.

I wouldn't say larger games are easier. If you know the habits of the local crowd and have the collection to mash into line....then after a handful of games they may be begging for the shallow end of the pool.

I know that last bit makes me sound like a waac powergamer, I am not.(I doubt I will ever win that many games, and most of those guys irritate me.) I like a good fun and competitive time. I also like a game where everyone plays by the same rules.

Oh and on that note you might enjoy Kill Zone..it's like kill team. It looks like a blast.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I like larger point games because I can field more cool stuff. I've never played less than 1500 pts.

[MonSTeR]

In my experience, the larger the game the easier list picking is and the less fun the game gets.

 

It becomes "star player and supporting cast" with folks simply fitting in troop units around their death star units.

 

In a smaller game, a truly effective death star is such a massive point sink that you have to be careful about leaving yourself open to being a one trick pony, there's more balance in smaller games and thus the game itself becomes a lot more fun when no-one dares take a 600 pt death star in case they're tied up with nothing left to claim any objectives, and not enough time to hotfoot it across the board to clean house.

[Khine]

Personally, i love bigger games but that is probably because my immediate meta aren't all about big hammer units. The tourney scene seems to be a much better mix between hammer and spread, which is good.

 

Hammer games are much more appealing when you have a highly mobile army ie rhinos, swiftclaws and rune priests with murderous hurricane. Nothing is more amusing than kiting a unit of paladins after you've immobilized their LR. Wait, yes there is ... watching them fall flat on their faces when they roll those ones for the dangerous terrain tests you forced them to take.

 

Then we come to big Spread (even point distribution) games. G.M if you enjoyed 1k spread games, playing it at the high end around 1850-2000 can be intense. Think of it this way, you a practically playing with what could be close to an entire company of marines going up an entire contingent of transport eldar. You have to be on the ball the entire time or your going to screw up and give the opponent a crack to push through while still trying to find a weakness in their army.

 

 

one of my mates has really good success taking Ragnar, wolf priest and as many WG tooled to the teeth in a Land raider. i will have to ask him his exact load out but it seems to go fairly well for him (took out draigo and paladins in one round of combat.)

[wolf363839]

Variety is the spice of life. Long time 2K gamer, which I like because it offers you the ability to BALANCE your force org to fight any enemy and win. That's my preferred points game.

 

I recently started a mini campaign with my brother and played four games, escalating points from 1250 on up. With a win/loss/tie you were able to add wargear to your units. It's a fun way to simulate experience. The smaller points games are fun because you focus on each wolf much more closely.

 

I also like massive games of 3K, 4K, 6K just because it's badass seeing a massive force arrayed and laying waste to the enemy. However, I agree with GM that I find that I don't care as much who wins or loses in the larger games.

[littlbitz]

I guess I'm all over the place, just 2 weeks ago, I played in a 400 point Combat Patrol Tournament, and had a blast.

Yesterday I played not one but Two games at 4000 points a side, and had a blast.

 

In my experience both ends of the spectrum have pros and cons. In smaller games, list construction is much more challenging, and the loss of any one unit, can be devastating to your game plans. So dice can play a larger roll in the end result, but at the same time a single mistake in a smaller game is magnified and can also be very unforgiving. So 400-500 point games can be very satisfying on a 4' x4' board with enough terrain.

 

As points levels go up, I find that you can fit more "toys" into the army and that is also a very satisfying experience, Logan leading 10 terminators across the field supported by a Wolf Lord on a Thunder Wolf and his posse is also loads of fun, and really should not be dismissed as "childs play" as this scale has a whole different set of tactics, in that your army can include a "Hammer" type unit, but also some sacrificial units and objective holders, the list goes on.

 

I guess the best advice I can give Grey Mage, is take advantage of the new experience and paint up some new and interesting units to beef up your current army, it may even result in you finding some new units that make their way into your smaller points level armies.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Portland, as in Portland Oregon?? Or as in Portland, Maine??

 

I am on the fence on this one brother. I like bigger games for the same reason Lord Ragnarok stated. And this is where we will differ on this end of the spectrum. I am a much more 'fluff' orientated player, so for me running an army comprised of Terminators and Thunderwolves is ideal. Where obviously it's not an ideal army to run at a more competitive level. So the more points I can take, the more models/packs/upgrades I can take.

 

The flip side of this coin is that most of the games I play are 1500. So I am having to break out of my comfort zone, re-do my FOC spots, and build more rounded lists. Plus I am still new to this game (comparatively), so tactics and such as still creeping into my brain.

 

End of Line

[hendrik]

they used to play smaller point games here, mostly because that were the games where my opponents furioso librarian dreadnought was able to sneak up to my line relatively safe and ruin my army on his own. bigger point games mean i can field more units, allowing me to use more tactics, a larger variety of units etc

[Grey Mage]

Portland, as in Portland Oregon?? Or as in Portland, Maine??

Portland Oregon, I havent been out to Maine in a couple years. Ive only met a few of the locals, enough to know what the point values are and where their painting standards lay. I might have done more, but my wallet went missing the first night I was here.

 

Well alright. I mean its not like I havent enjoyed seeing the occaisional triple-raider list run around. I just find that hammer-units often leads to Hero-hammer, something I was indoctrinated against in 2nd edition where everything was a little ridiculous unless you played IG :P

 

I suppose part of my trepidation is that I tend to run very lean units- and when you get up to 2500pts that means Ive filled my FOC to the brim. Funny thing is, I actually love Apocalypse.

[hendrik]

have you considered doing stuff like planetstrike then to creat some variety in your games? while doesn't require a complete retoolment of your lists it certainly is fun to make a really great defensive or offensive list

[Grey Mage]

Yep, I rather enjoy Planestrike, spearhead, and Cities of Death for the new challenges they bring in. Still, with the board sizes- and the amount of multiplayer we have- smaller games tend to be the rule.

[GalaxyChief]

Since you say you are in Portland area..... I assume you mean Oregon and not Maine you should head over to http://www.ordofanaticus.com Loads of players from Salem to Vancouver BC.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yeah, 1.5K is where it's at :D

 

But anyway....

 

Deathstars are more playable, which means blocking units, such as Speeders with MM are a good way of keeping that 500+pt unit and transport away, even for just a turn, are pretty essential, imo.

 

And so that means you too could bring a Deathstar of your own, but you could always do it with a twist, like Darkseer's Landraider Phobos and Termies combo. Then you won't be rushing into the teeth of the enemy [the way Deathstars get played] but use them as an ace-in-the-hole to counter enemy attacks, and get some pewpew from them in the meanwhile.

 

And lastly, those Hammernators you dislike - well, if you can make the 60ish point Wolf ones work, then you are 'doing it right'. I think that point nerf should make them a challenge enough for you, eh? ^_^

And you can build something cool like a Deathwing unit, so have something cooler than Vanilla/Vulkan Hammernators, and have a decent army to go along with them, unlike C:DA. If you buy 10 Wolfguard [with some for the GH] then you can have a double cyclone unit :)

[Khine]

Yeah, 1.5K is where it's at ;)

 

But anyway....

 

Deathstars are more playable, which means blocking units, such as Speeders with MM are a good way of keeping that 500+pt unit and transport away, even for just a turn, are pretty essential, imo.

 

And so that means you too could bring a Deathstar of your own, but you could always do it with a twist, like Darkseer's Landraider Phobos and Termies combo. Then you won't be rushing into the teeth of the enemy [the way Deathstars get played] but use them as an ace-in-the-hole to counter enemy attacks, and get some pewpew from them in the meanwhile.

 

And lastly, those Hammernators you dislike - well, if you can make the 60ish point Wolf ones work, then you are 'doing it right'. I think that point nerf should make them a challenge enough for you, eh? :)

And you can build something cool like a Deathwing unit, so have something cooler than Vanilla/Vulkan Hammernators, and have a decent army to go along with them, unlike C:DA. If you buy 10 Wolfguard [with some for the GH] then you can have a double cyclone unit :D

 

-chokes on his food- ... wait.. wait.. did you just tell a SW player to make a dark angel unit?! HERESY!! - shuns-

 

I like that counter enemy attack thing you suggested, could probably work. Twist though, use blood claws instead, just so its not your typical deathstar :P

[jester262]

my local shop is goin through the opposite of what happened to you. Our norm was 2k. And for the past few years that's all I've played. As far as what I use, don't worry about it. I never put anything in hard hitting. I played more for the fun of playing and the fluff. But now our tournaments are going to be 1500. I played 2 1500pt games Friday and I must say I had a blast. It makes it to where you actually have to think about what you want in your list instead of just chuckin whatever you want in there. So from now on, unless someone is really insitant about it, I'll only be playing at 1500.

[Spacefrisian]

I like large games, as i like putiing down large armies, besides that i am hardly able to do some decent things if the points limit is <750 points.

[dswanick]

Another solution I've found is to invite those 2.5k Death Star spammers to our quarterly Apocalypse game and introduce their "Death Star" to my two Reavers and two Warhounds. :tu:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yeah, 1.5K is where it's at ;)

 

But anyway....

 

Deathstars are more playable, which means blocking units, such as Speeders with MM are a good way of keeping that 500+pt unit and transport away, even for just a turn, are pretty essential, imo.

 

And so that means you too could bring a Deathstar of your own, but you could always do it with a twist, like Darkseer's Landraider Phobos and Termies combo. Then you won't be rushing into the teeth of the enemy [the way Deathstars get played] but use them as an ace-in-the-hole to counter enemy attacks, and get some pewpew from them in the meanwhile.

 

And lastly, those Hammernators you dislike - well, if you can make the 60ish point Wolf ones work, then you are 'doing it right'. I think that point nerf should make them a challenge enough for you, eh? :P

And you can build something cool like a Deathwing unit, so have something cooler than Vanilla/Vulkan Hammernators, and have a decent army to go along with them, unlike C:DA. If you buy 10 Wolfguard [with some for the GH] then you can have a double cyclone unit :)

 

-chokes on his food- ... wait.. wait.. did you just tell a SW player to make a dark angel unit?! HERESY!! - shuns-

 

I like that counter enemy attack thing you suggested, could probably work. Twist though, use blood claws instead, just so its not your typical deathstar :P

 

Well Hammernators [from C:SM] or Deathwing [which ends up being all Hammernators + Cyclone] are a feared unit. I think Wolves can do something different, which is always fun, and pay a hefty price for Hammernators, meaning it won't be as point-and-click as the other two versions. They wouldn't have to be in a LR, as foot termies work well enough for those other two armies.

 

Templars have mean Tactical Termies with two CML and tank hunters, but no i4 power weapons or 3++ saves available for the unit, etc.

 

As to Blood Claws, Darkseer was using Termies in a LR Phobos, but with a CML and combi-plasma galore, meaning he could really mess up even Monsters before he charged them. And with the Termies, they can always be out of their LR and shoot stuff with the CML, whereas the Blood Claws.... can't :)

 

I think we have all come to the conclusion that repeated:

Melta Hunters + Rhino

Missile Fangs

Runepriest

perhaps Thunder Wolves

is a winner. If that is seeing consistent success, for those wanting to branch out, I think coming up with replicas of other Codices [like a Deathwing unit] can actually be fun and fresh for a Wolf player, and his opponent too :P

[Matt D]

i find my games are never below 1500 because most of my opponents armies do not function well below that. we just increased to 1850 because that where are tournaments are right now so its practice while we paint up our armies. i do like all points levels myself but prefer 1500 to 2000 because i am such a fluff player. i do not like having the same load out in any of my packs/WG or HQs. i find it easier to diversify (1 WG w/PF & combi-melta, 1 WG w/TH & combi-melta etc.) and feels more like how the wolves are. unique.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I think that higher point games really benefit Drop Pod lists because there's nothing more glorious than four drop pods coming in turn one and absolutely upstaging an opponents deployment zone... particularly in a pitched battle.

 

Just beware Monstrous Creatures.