Do you have to take Armour saves?

[Johnnyb79]

I was chatting to a friend after a few games the other night and the topic of whether armour saves HAVE to be made or if you can choose to not take them. Seems a bit funny but armour is just equipment (?wargear?) and you can choose whether or not to use other equipment so is it the same for armour saves?

 

Its rare that you'd want to fail an armour save but it does come up, at last years ToS my lightning clawed marshall ended up in cc with a dreadnaught he couldnt hurt, I had 2 m.melta typhoon speeders and a crusader with a multi melta right next to the combat and my op. only had his dread left. I lost the game because I had to table him to win the annihilation (Draigowing was the worst op i could get on that scenario) and at turn 5 all he had left was the dread tied in cc, if my marshall failed his armour saves and died chances are that i would have won the game.

 

I did search for this question but couldnt find it.

 

Many thanks in advance

Johnnyb

[Morollan]

Not sure on this one. The rules imply that you can choose not to take a save as they say "can test" and "it is allowed" rather than "must test" etc. On the other hand, when talking about multiple saves it says "always using the best available save". Neither is particularly conclusive to my mind.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

How did your Marshall get armour saves against a Dreadnought?

[JamesI]

How did your Marshall get armour saves against a Dreadnought?

Could have been a shooty dread or a dread with the combat arm destroyed.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

How did your Marshall get armour saves against a Dreadnought?

Could have been a shooty dread or a dread with the combat arm destroyed.

 

Fair point.

[timmytool]

it is optional :P

 

BRB p20 "Take Save Throws"

"Before he removes any models as casualties, the owning player can test to see whether his troops avoid the damage by making a saving throw. This could be because of the target's armour, some other protective device or ability, or intervening model or terrain."

 

On a wording front save throws seems to be available solely to males in this game.....

 

 

As for the "best save available" that Morollan hinted to....

BRB p24 "models with more then one save"

"In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." and

"If a unit can benefit from different types of cover, for example being behind a hedge (5+ cover save) and a low wall (4+), the unit uses the best cover save available(in this case 4+)."

 

In the first quote "it has the advantage" but that advantage is not mandatory. In the second quote it forces you to use the best cover save available(over other sub pare cover saves) as your cover save but you are not obligated to use any save, but if you chose to use a cover save you "must" use use the best "cover save" available.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

It is accepted convention in rule drafting that references to one of the sexes necessarily includes both. Edited March 6, 2012 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[ShinyRhino]

Attempting to say "no thanks, I'll just fail all those saves on purpose" will promptly net you zero friends and a lack of willing game partners. Instantly. It reeks of shady dealings an attempt to skew the rules in your favor.

How would you possibly justify such an action? While under fire, your troops throw off their armor or protective gear to catch the incoming fire with their hearts?

 

RAW might say "can" in that one sentence on p20, but on p25 under the rules for Complex Units it leaves out the "can" when stating what happens when you reach the saving throw step.

TAKING SAVING THROWS

Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the

unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving

throws at the same time, in one batch.

 

With such ambiguous and inconsistent language, your best bet is to use your head and not try to weasel the system. :P

[Something Wycked]

In the section of the BRB that deals with multiple saves being available to a model, the BRB states that the model "must" take the best save available to it.

[timmytool]

In the section of the BRB that deals with multiple saves being available to a model, the BRB states that the model "must" take the best save available to it.

 

 

no it does not....

 

While I did not quote the whole section any mention to Best is shown in the full sentence quotes in my last post. It does not mention a must to using the best save, it says for cover saves you must use the best one available. It never obliges you to use the best cover save (lest say a 4+) when you have armour(3+), or just chose not to use a "saving throw".

[pyroknight]

The solution to this situation is to give your marshall meltabombs.

 

While not rolling your armor save seems rather sketchy to me, I think it is ultimately a weakness of the close combat rules to put you in a situation where you would want to kill your own troops.

[timmytool]

The solution to this situation is to give your marshall meltabombs.

 

While not rolling your armor save seems rather sketchy to me, I think it is ultimately a weakness of the close combat rules to put you in a situation where you would want to kill your own troops.

 

Its called taking a dive, its not good for winning a fight but it can win you the war..... (and if you dont like the dive analogy think of it as playing possum/dead)

[spartan249]

"Can" and "May" have different meanings. The word "can" means that the subject is able to do what is described in the sentence. The word "may" means that the subject has the option to do what is described in the sentence.

 

A subtle difference that is often forgotten and used by unsuspecting debaters.

[dswanick]

"Can" and "May" have different meanings. The word "can" means that the subject is able to do what is described in the sentence. The word "may" means that the subject has the option to do what is described in the sentence.

 

A subtle difference that is often forgotten and used by unsuspecting debaters.

As a further note 'can' and 'may' do not necessarily denote options :

"You can die if you try breathing underwater."

"You may die if you fall from several stories up."

Both sentences are proper and usual uses of the words 'can' and 'may', and neither could ne argued to present optional outcomes. 'Can' and 'may' are also used in conditional contexts. So the part of the rules in question could easily be re-written : "If the conditional of a wound is true, then make the appropriate save". Which would make it a clearly required step.

[Something Wycked]

In the section of the BRB that deals with multiple saves being available to a model, the BRB states that the model "must" take the best save available to it.

no it does not....

Sure it does.

 

BRB p24 "models with more then one save"

"In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

"Always uses the best save available" seems pretty clear to me. ^_^

[Johnnyb79]

sorry, just to calrify, it was against a shooty dread and my marshall had a storm shield anyway, wish he did have melta bombs :tu:

 

I doubt i would have just not taken a save as it wouldnt have been fluffy at all but we were just wondering

[Jacinda]

In the section of the BRB that deals with multiple saves being available to a model, the BRB states that the model "must" take the best save available to it.

no it does not....

Sure it does.

 

BRB p24 "models with more then one save"

"In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

"Always uses the best save available" seems pretty clear to me. B)

I hate to be a downer but I think you are taking that phrase out of context.

The model "GETS" to make one save and that to me implies permission to opt out. In that case the second part of the statement is irrelevant. On the other hand, if it does decide to make a saving throw, it uses the best available.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Jacinda

[dswanick]

I hate to be a downer but I think you are taking that phrase out of context.

The model "GETS" to make one save and that to me implies permission to opt out. In that case the second part of the statement is irrelevant. On the other hand, if it does decide to make a saving throw, it uses the best available.

TAKE SAVING THROWS

Before he removes any models as casualties, the owning player can test to see whether his troops avoid the damage by making a saving throw. This could be because of the target's armour, some other protective device or ability, or intervening models or terrain.

If you're hanging your argument on this 'can' as being an option you may choose to take or not take - I simply say "You can die if you jump out of an airplane".

You may die, you may not die. But you won't get a choice when you impact the ground to choose death or a Bumble-boune. It will all be up to fate and chance whether you live or die. Just as it is up to the dice wether you model makes or fails his save. That doesn't make it an optional event on your part.

[Jacinda]

"Can test."

 

So fate decides if I test? No. Fate decides if I pass. I decide if I test.

 

An empty jar with a lid sitting on a desk can spontaneously jump up as all the randomly moving air molecules all go up at the same time. It can happen. The possibility is extremely low, however. Even lower than the possibility of a codex being worded with no misconstrued rules. lol

 

Hey, my point is that "may" is an obvious choice and "must" is an obvious absence of choice where "can" can mean either. May mean either? Certainly not must mean either. Maybe. It is a confusing word to use for rules. "Can" and "gets" are too gray. "May" is never used and "always" is used once but then only after a preceding "gets" clause.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jacinda

[eyeslikethunder]

My interpretation would be it not optional

[dswanick]

"Can test."

 

So fate decides if I test? No. Fate decides if I pass. I decide if I test.

You're misrepresenting my statement. "Can test" - "Can die", neither is up to you.

An empty jar with a lid sitting on a desk can spontaneously jump up as all the randomly moving air molecules all go up at the same time. It can happen. The possibility is extremely low, however. Even lower than the possibility of a codex being worded with no misconstrued rules. lol

 

Hey, my point is that "may" is an obvious choice and "must" is an obvious absence of choice where "can" can mean either. May mean either? Certainly not must mean either. Maybe. It is a confusing word to use for rules. "Can" and "gets" are too gray. "May" is never used and "always" is used once but then only after a preceding "gets" clause.

If you're bitten by a snake, you may die. 'May' and 'can' in these circumstances both mean that the outcome is indeterminate, not that you have a choice in the application of the test.

You're trying to parse words and selectively apply proper english to rules which are not written by English majors in order to achieve an outcome you desire which is exactly the opposite of the common sense result (ie, a dude is wearing armor and that armor has a chance to deflect the wounding hit. He doesn't really have enough time between the pulling of the trigger and the impact of the round to yank off his armor because he has a death wish.)

Edited March 13, 2012 by dswanick

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Can jump out of a plane. A choice.

 

You're using it situationally to make it say what you want it to say.

[dswanick]

Can jump out of a plane. A choice.

 

You're using it situationally to make it say what you want it to say.

As are you. ;) And it's 'If you jump out of a plane' and 'you can die'. The jumping is optional, but the dying is not, it's random. Unfortunately, the choice of being the target of shooting or not is in the hands of your opponent - the random result is not up to you, however.

So maybe a better wording would be "If you're pushed out of an airplane, you can die'. The optional event is optional, but not your choice. The resulting event is random, but still not up to you to decide to accept or refuse. Just like "If you're bitten by a snake, you can die". No choice on your part, but the 'can' indicates a possible outcome not of your choosing.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

As are you.

 

Yes I am but I'm not doing it to make it seem as if the meaning I've arbitrarily decided to attribute to it despite it making no sense in the context of the sentence is the correct one. I'm highlighting that "can" has numerous meanings and the context it which it is used, "can test" as opposed to "can die", means that there is a choice involved. See also the rules for Invulnerable Saves; "may... be taken".

 

So, no. You do not have to take armour saves, nor any kind of save if you choose not to.

[ShinyRhino]

I'd be willing to place a wager on the fact that if you were allowed to "skip" taking saves, the rulebook would tell you that.

 

This whole "can" versus "may" thing isn't productive in the least. As I said before, the wording is ambiguous enugh that the best policy is not to be a dingbat and roll your saves. ;)