Emperors Immortals Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Id say its because an aceptable aspect of the Khorne worshpi is the Beserker Cult, which legitimises madness.The other three do not have a specific path like this - perhaps the prophetic words of raving lunatics (like that one in the fantasy Empire that Archaon wigged out over) woudl be as close as we can get?. ADB i shoudl hope youd be much more gracious, as people actually care if your a nice(enough) guy or not. Part of the 7 years younger deal lol.(p.s i love your writing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 To jump to another conversaional rail:Abercrombie took pot shots at McNeil over an award? Seriously? One would think that selling enough books to build a guest home entirely out of stacks of hundred dollar bills would be its own reward, and that anything other than that would be pure gravy, at least in the sense that you could be a gracious loser over a David Gemmell award. Joking aside, a lot of people in and out of the industry aren't aware just how well (some) licensed fiction sells. 40K fiction, f'rex, sells better than all the other tie-in fiction in the world, combined, and a 40K book will almost always outsell a sci-fi or fantasy novel from anyone but a massive author. A lot of sci-fi authors would kill for Graham's sales. Honest and true. As for Joe Abercrombie's reaction; I think a lot of it was just public persona jokeyness, but I've heard other authors outside BL being pretty unkind about him, based on it. It could be just that the joke went too far, and he does keep bringing it up at conventions. I think he's a stellar writer, though. Would never suggest otherwise. On the matter of writing Khornate Marines, I was re-reading Soul Hunter yesterday and noticed how much more degrading the Khorne vision that appeared to Talos is, compared to Tzeench and Slaanesh. I wondered...is Khornate worshipping an automatically faster route towards lunacy? Ooooh, I like this one. in that specific example, it's partly because of what Wade answered: It seems to me that most Marines have been raised from childhood to glory in war and slaughter, so it's only a hop, skip, and a jump to being a screaming beserker in the service of the Blood God... ...and partly because I was trying to present the image coming to Talos as an unwelcome price to pay for the power on offer. He didn't see martial excellence; he basically saw corruption - almost simply just seeing Uzas reflected in himself - because of his firm standards of (what he thinks is) purity. So it was an unattractive image to Talos, because of who he was. He saw accordingly through the veil of temptation, to something that repelled him. Conversely, he was much more tempted by the vision that buffed his psychic gift and could've offered more to the legion as a whole, playing off his fears and idealism. I think Kol Saresk has a good point, too - and your suggestions are similarly valid - but I think Wade nailed it with the specific "Khorne is a natural fit" deal. These are psychologically-manipulated weapons moulded from human flesh. The Liber Chaotica makes the point that Khorne is an easy trap for them to fall into, given the way they live their lives and how they're shaped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Joking aside, a lot of people in and out of the industry aren't aware just how well (some) licensed fiction sells. 40K fiction, f'rex, sells better than all the other tie-in fiction in the world, combined, Even Star Wars books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Great points have been made, I agree with Wade Garrett in that, Space Marines being the killing machines they were bred as, they cross a much finer line when embracing Khorne. Still, and like Emperor's Immortals states, lunacy can be found in any Chaos worshipping variety, I'm sure a Slaaneshi pleasure-seeker must be as hard to control as Uzas, and a Tzeenchian madman is sure to create in others the urge to punch his mouth shut. Likewise, Nurgle worshippers, while usually tamer, have that tendency to spread disease and contagion all around. That being said, and taking the drug addiction paralel pointed out before, strength of will and state of mind also play a role. Take Cyrion, the guy seems to be so ashamed of his Slaaneshi-given ability (probably because of Talos and the rest of the group's view on corruption) that he tries to keep it concealed (as much as one can conceal a gift by a Chaos God). I guess I got carried away by the [general] wish to see Khorne berzerkers painted in different (and better) colours than the usual. While there is surely room to improve, ultimately, a Khorne worshipper will always be an individual whose largest (by far) goal is to destroy through war. Some will be subtler, like Zhufor, some, like Uza, will be more primal, but they're always the more likely to go into babbling their motto, charging at the enemy and get killed first and/or by more scheming characters. It's factual, brute strength is very likely to get outmanouvered or just get itself in the path of bullets. The trick, I think, is in interaction. The way Talos and the rest of the first claw deal with Uza's mind-swings is what makes him interesting because, in himself, Uza is a typical berzerker in the making. For example, when Uza says something pertinent and Talos is genuinely surprised and...sad...that his brother has spoken sense is just golden. Edit: Forgot to make the final point - that there is surely a tragic side to every Berzerker's mind, but that definitely depends on the perspective from which the story is told. And, ultimately, a Khrone worshipper is an unlikeable/unsociabble, belicose beast residing in a deeper or shallower cave, depending on the character's strength of mind and the attention Khorne grants him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Joking aside, a lot of people in and out of the industry aren't aware just how well (some) licensed fiction sells. 40K fiction, f'rex, sells better than all the other tie-in fiction in the world, combined, Even Star Wars books? Unless you're Timothy Zahn, most likely. I still kind of feel bad for those of them who invented and entire canonical Star Wars universe only to watch it go bye-bye in the blink of an eye with one movie. In response to Greyall, yeah but look at Uzas. In Blood Reaver we find this tragic downfall. Uzas was a sergeant. And IIRC, he was Talos' sergeant at that. Or at least he was giving Talos orders during that Siege of Terra flashback. At any rate, he portrays this fall rather well. And the worse part is, he still has flashes of sanity. How did the World Eater in Outcast Dead put it? "Don't mistake straightforwardness for stupidity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Honestly I disliked ADB's portrayal in Soul Hunter with Khorne's aspect. Khorne never in my opinion would beg for worship, like the aspect seemed to do in Soul Hunter. I love the martial aspect of Khorne which eventually always leads down to the main quote "Blood for the blood god" but it's always interesting to see how the character gets to this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I see Khorne as the "Follow me if you want to live or die. Either way you'll be out of my way." Kind of guy. Like Clint Eastwood when he was a no name bounty hunter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Is it just me that think that Khorne berzerkers isn't that crazy as everybody seems to picture them? I liked the World Eaters in Outcast Dead, beings of skill, discipline and martial honour. Not as onedimensional as they usually seem to be described as...(though only one of them was "modified") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Is it just me that think that Khorne berzerkers isn't that crazy as everybody seems to picture them? I liked the World Eaters in Outcast Dead, beings of skill, discipline and martial honour. Not as onedimensional as they usually seem to be described as...(though only one of them was "modified") It's because it's the classic way to depict a devotee of Khorne, as well as it being likely that madness sets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Yeah but like Excessus said, it's one dimensional. If Chaos is supposed to defy classification, then why are its servants so easy to define when some of them aren't even human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Didn't I read somewhere that Khorne doesn't like the skulls of unworthy foes(instilling some sort of martial honour in his followers)? Can't remember where I read it though, if I read it at all...memory disappears with age unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 good point, i thik the unkowable in chaos is the border region - what makes one marine seek perfection in martial skill in Khornes name could easily have been done in th name of Slaanesh, depending on a very small difference of perspective. I feel i ts the debate of form Vs function - like Camus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hmm. Sounds interesting. As to Fantasy, anything outside Gotrek and Felix, and I'm not for it. I read through the rules and knew with certainty that it was not for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Fantasy novels don't have to jive with the tabletop rules. There are enough complaints from people about 40k novels mixing with the GW rules-oriented "canon". I used to restrict myself in the same way. Still do after a fashion since I'm a Chaos fan. Don't really care how Chaos is involved, just that it usually is. Don't always get what I want. But seriously, if you would like to try something other than Gotrek and Felix, I would recommend the Malus Darkblade series and Brunner. Brunner is a must. But IIRC, the "modified" one, Tagore I think his name was, was portrayed at varying degrees throughout the novel. At the beginning, he truly seemed to be a berzerker. He ripped out a Custodian's spine through his chest and power armor through Pete's sake! But then he went on to switch between mellow to "I AM ANGRY!" repeatedly through out the novel until it ended. I appreciate the depth but somehow I was expecting a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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