A niggle about Deliverance Lost

[The Colossus]

 

Basically, would the Alpha Legionnaires have been able to impersonate higher command? I assumed they were just grunts- Alpharius says to the Alpha Legionnaire impersonating a Raven Guard Captain something along the lines of just because you are acting as a Captain, doesn't mean you have that rank...

 

Do basic Alpha Legionnaires have the training needed to perform command functions, or am I missing something?

 

 

Cheers in advance ^_^

[Kierdale]

A combination of training beyond the scope of normal marines and, to some extent (questionable how much) the effect of the Omophagea?

[awfulawful]

I struggled with that as well. The whole idea seemed implausible (in a fictional world in which I am already willing to abandon a great deal of disbelief), but when that was revealed, it was just too much.

[Kol Saresk]

Well they were all "Alpharius" which would suggest that as operatives, they were all equal rank. Remember, they said that their original memories were wiped and they had the memories of the person they were impersonating implanted through the Omophagea combined with whatever their Librarians did. They had no idea who they were before "Operation Repo: A Genetic Opera" began. Just that they were Alpha Legion and that while they responded to the name Alpharius, they were not Alpharius.

 

And they most likely would be able to perform command functions since one of them was impersonating a Commander, but that was the rank of the person he was impersonating, not his actual rank. It is the same with the person that you are talking about.

[Candleshoes]

Plus, the amount of time they would have spent fighting to escape, in the aftermath of Istvaan with the other survivors would have played a huge factor in cementing the deception. They could get away with making mistakes, by just being present and surviving. I think the Raven Guard would overlook many things in the context of the situation, for their brothers who are standing side by side fighting with them.

 

Afterwards, when the conflict is done, the mood of those veterans have room to evolve, to be more kept in and brooding. People would likely notice the change, but blame the massacre and its effects on those who survived.

[The Colossus]

@Kierdale, so would the Omophagea transfer skill sets as well as memories. I understand memories help with the interaction with fellow marines, but would it extend to a grasp of tactics and strategy?

 

@Kol_Saresk and @Candleshoes I hadn't thought about it like that like that. I guess adversity breeds comradeship anyway...

 

 

Is it possible that the operatives could have been part of Effrit Squad, therefore a bit better than the average Alphamarine?

 

[Artein]

I believe that every Alpha Legionnaire knows something about tactics and strategy. They're all impersonating Alpharius.

Kill their leader and they'll still fight as if nothing happened. Cut off one head....

Like on Eskrador.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The one thing I thought of while listening to DL: Has there ever been any conclusive evidence of there actually being twin AL Primarchs? It seems like the Alpha Legion themselves aren't even sure. It seems fairly clear to me right now that Omegon is Alpharius. Essentially "The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist" (Baudelaire, made famous by The Usual Suspects). Everyone is Alpharius because Alpharius no longer actually exists (as he assumed the identity of Omegon).

 

Seems to fit into the theme of the Alpha Legion for sure. Misdirection, unconventional warfare, etc. So the question is, who did Guilliman kill? Can argue it both ways for sure. It's likely Guilliman wouldn't have been fooled by the ruse, and would know his brother from a fake. Of course, everybody thinking he was dead is... just as planned.

 

Either way, I don't think I believe the "twins" aspect of the story.

[Conn Eremon]

The one thing I thought of while listening to DL: Has there ever been any conclusive evidence of there actually being twin AL Primarchs? It seems like the Alpha Legion themselves aren't even sure. It seems fairly clear to me right now that Omegon is Alpharius. Essentially "The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist" (Baudelaire, made famous by The Usual Suspects). Everyone is Alpharius because Alpharius no longer actually exists (as he assumed the identity of Omegon).

 

Seems to fit into the theme of the Alpha Legion for sure. Misdirection, unconventional warfare, etc. So the question is, who did Guilliman kill? Can argue it both ways for sure. It's likely Guilliman wouldn't have been fooled by the ruse, and would know his brother from a fake. Of course, everybody thinking he was dead is... just as planned.

 

Either way, I don't think I believe the "twins" aspect of the story.

 

In Legion the twin Primarchs are shown together at certain parts, with zero room to doubt that the two are the true Alpharius and Omegon.

[Candleshoes]

In a you tube interview, Dan Abnett mentions that when he was first gathering story for Legion, he went to Alan Merett with his ideas for secrets to share about the Alpha Legion, hoping to get the green light for one or two. Dan said that Alan not only said to include all of them, but told him to include something that made all of Dan's ideas pale in comparison, the fact that there are two primarchs.

 

According to Alan Merett, this truth had always existed in the story, but was left for people to figure out themselves. To Alan, it was just bringing what was always there to light, not creating something new. This frame continues with the pod crash scene from First Heretic, two beings leave the craft.

 

So, while Tyler Durden-esque plot devices might be a logical path with the information at hand, the "High Lord of Terra" himself says there are two of them.

[Black Mage 257]

So, while Tyler Durden-esque plot devices might be a logical path with the information at hand, the "High Lord of Terra" himself says there are two of them.

 

The first rule of the Istvaan V drop site massacre, is not to talk about Istvaan V drop site massacre.

 

I did initially find the fact that they could infiltrate such high ranks of a legion without arousing any suspicion a bit far-fetched, but if you look at it in the context of the 40k universe (crazy fluff and ideas are pretty commonplace.) it's not that unbelieveable :)

 

Also I found the Alpharius/Omegon parts to be one of my favourite things about the book and creating a twisting and mysterious narrative throughout the book like that, I think will keep most people reading as it is a brilliant approach.

 

I like the fact that the mystery surrounding the twin primarchs has been cleared up too, if we finally find out happened to the II and XI legions I'll be a happy chap :D

[The Colossus]

The one thing I thought of while listening to DL: Has there ever been any conclusive evidence of there actually being twin AL Primarchs? It seems like the Alpha Legion themselves aren't even sure. It seems fairly clear to me right now that Omegon is Alpharius. Essentially "The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist" (Baudelaire, made famous by The Usual Suspects). Everyone is Alpharius because Alpharius no longer actually exists (as he assumed the identity of Omegon).

 

Seems to fit into the theme of the Alpha Legion for sure. Misdirection, unconventional warfare, etc. So the question is, who did Guilliman kill? Can argue it both ways for sure. It's likely Guilliman wouldn't have been fooled by the ruse, and would know his brother from a fake. Of course, everybody thinking he was dead is... just as planned.

 

Either way, I don't think I believe the "twins" aspect of the story.

 

It would make for an interesting plot twist, but, as others have mentioned, the evidence makes me inclined to believe the two primarchs thing.

 

I mean, I'm Alpharius, so I should know right :D I jest of course.......

[Saa]

I've been slacking with reading and my 40k since the recent birth of my son so I have to admit I've only just finished reading Deliverance Lost.

 

I've rarely been entertained by Gav Thorpe as an author but I have to say this book didn't have his cold sterile penmanship so I actually really enjoyed it. It did take a large suspension of belief to accept high ranked infil(traitors) but meh this is 40k if you want realism you picked the wrong hobby I guess *grin*

 

Now, time to start this copy of Know no Fear that has been taunting me on my shelves for a while......Aw damn I hope it's good, I've been salivating at the thought of the goodness inside

 

Saa

 

.......or something like that

[Morollan]

It stretched my suspension of disbelief when it was suggested that the Omophagea would allow sufficiently detailed memory to enable someone to get away with impersonating a hig-ranking, command level member of another legion. Surely there would be codewords, intimate knowledge of pretty much every aspect of the Legion not to mention that to have risen to the rank of Commander would entail extended personal interaction with many members of the Legion.

 

All a bit too much for my liking, even when the Commander in question turned out not to be the one that Gav had been dramatically pointing at with a giant neon arrow* for about 200 pages.

 

 

 

 

*I actually told myself that if the obvious suspect turned out to be the actual traitor I was just going to throw the book out the window rather than bother finishing it.

[Black Mage 257]

While I admit this is still unbelieveable to me also, the only other way I can see it being justified slightly is that the Marines of this era were simply still dumbfounded by the idea of other legions turning on each other, astartes fighting astartes was just a ridiculous concept they never thought possible, even after it happened some still couldn't admit it.

 

So the idea of marines infiltrating other legions must have been massively ridiculous to the likes of the Raven Guard at this time, especially at such high levels. It'd be like those marines sitting down and reading science fiction :)

[Jim Shady]

I imagine, the AL being the AL, they've got some idea of how the RG operate ie how they train etc and most, if not all the legions.

 

Have to add that I believe that either Alpharius or Omegon ARE dead by the hand of Robby G. Considering it'll be hard to pull the wool over a Primarchs eye's, specially one who he has met, had heated arguments with and has openly stated that he disagree's with how the AL operate to the other legions and to the UM in particular.

[Olis]

I'm not really understanding how people disbelieve a legion specialising in insurgency/counter-insurgency work and spying, filled with transhumans (or post humans if you will) could not pull off impersonating someone of rank - surely it would be a matter of course that any dopplegangers (trained for this sort of work, to boot) would avoid situations that would compromise their cover and it would only be a matter of time until they learned enough to diminish those situations significantly. For a start, the RG even didn't suspect something was wrong for a large chunk of the book and even then they weren't sure of who or what they were looking for for a while when they did. And then there was the strategy the AL employed to effect their objective which maximised mission success even in the event of discovery.

 

The only individual they could not impersonate was Corax himself, and that is stating the obvious.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not really understanding how people disbelieve a legion specialising in insurgency/counter-insurgency work and spying, filled with transhumans (or post humans if you will) could not pull off impersonating someone of rank - surely it would be a matter of course that any dopplegangers (trained for this sort of work, to boot) would avoid situations that would compromise their cover and it would only be a matter of time until they learned enough to diminish those situations significantly. For a start, the RG even didn't suspect something was wrong for a large chunk of the book and even then they weren't sure of who or what they were looking for for a while when they did. And then there was the strategy the AL employed to effect their objective which maximised mission success even in the event of discovery.

 

The only individual they could not impersonate was Corax himself, and that is stating the obvious.

 

My issue with that wasn't that it couldn't be done, but that it wasn't done well. Saying it's Alpha Legion, and that's just how they roll, is all well and good if this was something briefly written in a Codex or something like that. No details can be given, so we can just assume it's because Alpha Legion is Alpha Legion. But this was a full-length novel, and the details were provided. While what we know of Alpha Legion makes this level of insurgency a plausible circumstance, the author in this case failed to provide that plausibility in his description of that circumstance.

[Jim Shady]

Or maybe because of the mauling the RG got and how Corax changed the Legion and the other things that were happening at the time, maybe the change caused the AL to become wrong footed by what was going on? This is only going to be a question that Gav Thrope can answer.

[Sun Reaver]

I'm not really understanding how people disbelieve a legion specialising in insurgency/counter-insurgency work and spying, filled with transhumans (or post humans if you will) could not pull off impersonating someone of rank - surely it would be a matter of course that any dopplegangers (trained for this sort of work, to boot) would avoid situations that would compromise their cover and it would only be a matter of time until they learned enough to diminish those situations significantly. For a start, the RG even didn't suspect something was wrong for a large chunk of the book and even then they weren't sure of who or what they were looking for for a while when they did. And then there was the strategy the AL employed to effect their objective which maximised mission success even in the event of discovery.

 

The only individual they could not impersonate was Corax himself, and that is stating the obvious.

 

I agree 100%.

 

A bit off topic, but I really enjoyed the part when they were all stating that they were Alpharius. It brought about a big smile.

 

Sun Reaver

[Olis]

While what we know of Alpha Legion makes this level of insurgency a plausible circumstance, the author in this case failed to provide that plausibility in his description of that circumstance.

 

How so?

 

I'm not asking to be contrary, I'd just like to know what parts seem implausible. There was a brief vignette near the beginning detailing the rough process of how the Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard and there was a secondary POV from one Legionnaire himself providing a different perspective and an insight for most of the book. It seemed to cover the bases to me. ;)

[Conn Eremon]

While what we know of Alpha Legion makes this level of insurgency a plausible circumstance, the author in this case failed to provide that plausibility in his description of that circumstance.

 

How so?

 

I'm not asking to be contrary, I'd just like to know what parts seem implausible. There was a brief vignette near the beginning detailing the rough process of how the Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard and there was a secondary POV from one Legionnaire himself providing a different perspective and an insight for most of the book. It seemed to cover the bases to me. :)

 

 

Those POV parts you mentioned? Did the opposite for me. Every time it switched to that Alpharius' viewpoint it constantly showed with no prior knowledge about the Raven Guard, and who consistently makes mistakes. This is Alpha Legion, and this was clearly a major operation, and yet the legionnaire had virtually no briefing on the Legion he was to infiltrate? They expected it to succeed when they're sending people in blind? And the mistakes this Alpharius made were ridiculously over the top, and the explanations were incredibly thin. Like the fighting thing. The Raven Guard all came from the same place, received the same training, and essentially fight the same. Whatever one was taught, all of them have been. So when he comes out with something never before seen by the Raven Guard, something wasn't even closely based off of something related to the Raven Guard, it's a big deal. The explanation for it was immediately accepted and moved on, no questions asked. That explanation was that it was learned fighting traitors on Istvaan. These same traitors that the majority of the Legion also fought. These same traitors who are just like the Raven Guard when it comes to having a unique training regimen. See where I'm going with this?

 

It was that sort of portrayal that killed the believability for me. Given what we know of Alpha Legion, it's certainly plausible that such a legionnaire as that Alpharius could infiltrate the Raven Guard. But as it was portrayed in this book, by that author? Not at all.

[Kol Saresk]

I think what he was going for(think, not know) was that the Raven Guard were basically reeling from Istvaan so bad that they missed things that they would normally notice, ranging from tiny things like the one infiltrator asking why the gene-lab wasn't in plain sight with a curtain wall and siege cannons to another infiltrator "adopting" a traitor's fighting technique because "it caught a Raven Guard off guard." No pun was intended in that statement, I just don't know how to word it better. So while, like you, I was underwhelmed by the Alpha Legion's portrayal by Gav Thorpe versus the betrayal by Dan Abnett, Deliverance Lost was still a decent novel. And it had a decent portrayal of the Raven Guard. The only other thing I noticed about it was that if only the created gene-seed was what was tampered with, then why is all of their gene-seed unstable?

[Olis]

Those POV parts you mentioned? Did the opposite for me. *snip*

 

Given what we know of Alpha Legion, it's certainly plausible that such a legionnaire as that Alpharius could infiltrate the Raven Guard. But as it was portrayed in this book, by that author? Not at all.

 

Fair enough - I personally didn't quite get the same feel from the writing but I see your point. Perhaps I looked over the logical inconsistencies.

[Barundin Thunderhammer]

The only other thing I noticed about it was that if only the created gene-seed was what was tampered with, then why is all of their gene-seed unstable?

 

The only thing I can think of is that its like photocopying. Bear with me!

 

When you have the original (ie the geneseed original) any copy taken from it is reasonably ok.

 

However if you then take further copies from that copy and so on, the copies become less effective?

 

So if you are recovering geneseed and making copies from that, maybe it works the same way?

 

Though that would technically make all chapters geneseed flawed....hmmm..