Looking for something different

[GeoWolf]

I want to throw a spanner in the works. Almost everyone expects certain things from a chaos list once they hear that they are gonna fight them. By the Eye even I do it! But I have been thinking long and hard on this one, and I can't seem to come to an agreement on my own. So here goes:

 

I want to use Fast Attack. The primary use for these is going to be anti-tank. Looking at it in the small sense, a unit of three Bikers with two Meltas comes in at under 120 while a unit of five Raptors with a Melta or two Plasma pistols comes in at 110/130. Right now I'm not thinking about Icons as I am currently thinking of these as quick suicide units where if they survive the turn after they shoot then all the better. I think the durability is roughly the same, Bkies are slightly harder to wound but there are more bodies to Raptors. Plasma pistols don't pack the same punch as a Melta, but I do get 2 shots...at shorter range.

 

For the arguements sake I am also thinking of taking a unit of Chosen with Meltas and Infiltrating them. That way I have a small forward unit that might be able to get a shot or two off at presentable targets and possibly several other small units to zip up and make a nuisance of themselves. More than likely I will make this list a close combat build.

 

So what do you all think? Pros and cons are welcome, but please leave the "but there is only one unholy build!" rhetoric at home.

 

^_^

[the jeske]

I want to use Fast Attack

there will be a problem with that as chaos doesnt have FA .

 

The primary use for these is going to be anti-tank. Looking at it in the small sense, a unit of three Bikers with two Meltas comes in at under 120 while a unit of five Raptors with a Melta or two Plasma pistols comes in at 110/130.

and 3 termis cost less have more shots and unlike raptors or bikers dont have to worry they will get caught on the way to their target.

For the arguements sake I am also thinking of taking a unit of Chosen with Meltas and Infiltrating them

dont . first of all if someone plays SW or deploys stuff before you the chosen will be wasted points[out of range etc]. if you take chosen you buy them a rhino and ouflank this way you have more then 24" range on your meltas after deploying on the turn they come from reservs.

[Menkeroth]

It's quite logically, Bikers with Icon of Nurgle're quite pretty, esp. accompanied by lord of Nurgle with his Daemon Weapon.

And think not for the prices - forget it, Marines don't have even the notion "cheap / expensive". It's left for IG or Orks but not the Astartes.

[minigun762]

I think MSU fast attack units like you've described above can work. They accomplish the same basic role as termicide squads with some trade offs. I would only consider melta options though, none of this plasma pistol nonsense. ;)

 

Bikers vs Raptors, I know for me it would be Raptors because I can't stand marines on bikes, I think it looks goofy. Tactically, Bikers have an edge on flatter, more open boards while Raptors have it easier on crowded boards.

[GeoWolf]

@Jeske: 1. Chaos does indeed have FA. It is made up by Bikers, Raptors and Spawn. Feel free to browse the Codex to check. ;)

2. Yes, Termicide can be a viable option, being able to put out 3 ONE time melta shots. Not to mention that you have to deep strike, which we all know has its own inherent flaws.

3. Infiltrating units are deployed last, after all other units are deployed, including your opponents. At least that is what the BRB says. But you do make a point about the outflank move, something to think about at least.

I want to try something different. Everyone knows to expect Termicide, Oblits and all the rest. I want to see about mixing things up.

 

@Menkeroth: Oh I agree with you whole heartily. One of my favorite units in Apoc games is exactly that, tooled up all fancy like. There is something to be said for a unit of marines charging into close combat with a T4(6). Frightening comes to mind :)

But for this current thought I really wasn't looking to add an icon to the unit, as the primary goal is going to be to zip up and attempt to roast something quick. I see icons as an investment to a unit that you want to stick around. As I said, if the unit lasts past the enemys shooting phase then all the better.

 

@Minigun: Yea, I am really leaning towards melta, it is just more reliable. I see the pistols as being viable if I were to task the Raptors with hunting Infantry. Then not only could I get off two S7 shots along with the rest, but I could still claim the second attack bonus. But you make a very good point, that being the terrain. I hadn't given any thought to that and you are right. Seeing as I don't play on a set board or even with the same terrain all the time I really don't know. The last game was on an ice world themed board. No buildings or any such thing but it was very well done with all sorts of canyons and such, almost as if the board were two levels. Bikes would have been a liability but Raptors would have been king...

[Kristoff]

@Jeske: 1. Chaos does indeed have FA. It is made up by Bikers, Raptors and Spawn. Feel free to browse the Codex to check. :)

2. Yes, Termicide can be a viable option, being able to put out 3 ONE time melta shots. Not to mention that you have to deep strike, which we all know has its own inherent flaws.

3. Infiltrating units are deployed last, after all other units are deployed, including your opponents. At least that is what the BRB says. But you do make a point about the outflank move, something to think about at least.

I want to try something different. Everyone knows to expect Termicide, Oblits and all the rest. I want to see about mixing things up.

 

Yeah, Jeske is one of those who only see units that can be completely competitive at all times and can't conceive that some units can be decent, even good, in certain situations, and can make a game quite fun.

[Paulochromis]

Yeah, Jeske is one of those who only see units that can be completely competitive at all times and can't conceive that some units can be decent, even good, in certain situations, and can make a game quite fun.

you could do a LOT worse than listen to the jeske.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Factoring in nebulous things like "fun" and "I like this model" and "this is fluffy" and "my god I'm bored of playing the same list and want to try something new" then there are some situations where the numbers sense means less.

 

I've done both Raptors and Bikers for anti-tank. The short version is that bikers usually stay on the table longer but accomplish less, while Raptors usually shoot down the first thing I send them at then get wiped out completely in one round of enemy shooting.

 

I've had some success with Chosen infiltrating and unleashing melta-pain, as well.

 

These units, being "less optimal" depend a lot more on scenario, terrain, and going first to get their points back. It's sad but true. In one game they'll be spectacular, but in another game they'll fail miserably. If you can live with that, for whatever reasons of your own, then have at it.

[Kristoff]

you could do a LOT worse than listen to the jeske.

 

Perhaps, but only if you don't take him completely for his word and look beyond what he's saying. He's just far too strict in his interpretations to be taken literally.

[Kol Saresk]

It's just his mindset. All you have to do is be able to translate. Give him a codex that has a bit more competitive variety and I bet you we will all be thanking him when he pops up with fluff-appropriate lists that can hold their own even against the Grey Knights. Not win every time since player error can't be accounted for, but at least it would have a chance at winning as far as the odds go. Besides, the OP did ask for the cons of Fast Attack and the reality is(much to the dismay of my now-crushed dreams) Chaos Fast Attack SUCKS. Bikers can last a while, but they do no real damage without the luck of the Gods being on their side. Raptors can hit hard, but they die fast. Spawn basically do nothing but slow a unit down long enough for a template to be centered on them. If they are in range of a template. That's the truth of it. Fast attack is great for a fluff army. And who knows, you might get lucky and win one day.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I never understood Spawn being in the FA slot anyway. They're Slow and Purposeful aren't they? How does something S&P become a "fast" option? They should be outside the FOC entirely, like Summoned Lesser Daemons. Or move like cavalry and have Furious Charge.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know. GW decided it. This is what the codex says regarding their FOC slot on page 99:

 

"Your army may include any number of units of Chaos Spawn. Units of Chaos Spawn do not use up any force organisation chart selection, but are otherwise treated as a Fast Attack unit. All of the Spawn in the force must be divided into as few squads as possible."

[Warsmith Aznable]

I don't know. GW decided it. This is what the codex says regarding their FOC slot on page 99:

 

otherwise treated as a Fast Attack unit

 

I guess I remembered that wrong. But what does being treated like a FA unit mean?

[Kol Saresk]

I honestly have not iota of an idea because they do have Slow and Purposeful.

[empchildrenbob]

theyre in the FA because even though they are slow and purposeless, they count as beasts so they have fleet and assault 12 inches

[Kristoff]

theyre in the FA because even though they are slow and purposeless, they count as beasts so they have fleet and assault 12 inches

 

Ding Ding Ding! And here's the answer! It's for similar reason for Dark Eldar Beastmasters, and IG Rough Riders.

 

From the same extension, Tau Pathfinders and the Sisters' unit in the old codex (is that unit still there?) that are both required to come with a transport and are in Fast Attack.

[the jeske]

theyre in the FA because even though they are slow and purposeless, they count as beasts so they have fleet and assault 12 inches

 

 

unless something was changed slow and purposful do not charge 12" they move 2d6" then pick one then fleet d6 and this one isnt modified then they charge for 2d6" combined.

[GeoWolf]

@Max: I do take into consideration those abstract thoughts. I like fun, and the look of someone when out of the blue you put two rhinos and 40 spawn on the table. I may not have won the game, but that was quite fun. I think that I may just have to playtest. Oh the horro, having to play games... :P

 

@Kol: At the end of the day that is what it looks like it has boiled down to for me. Bikers can potentially take more pain but raptors can dish it out better. The difference that I am looking at right now is that I am going to be hunting armor with them, not units. Raptors still top out I think if I am going after transports so I can get at the sweet meats inside, But with only being able to take one Melta I don't know. Though if I add in Icons and such then Menkeroths notion comes to the fore. Nurgle Bikers can take a good bit of punishment, and can still dish a little out. If I were to send them against transports I don't think that I would cringe quite so much then. In that case I'm thinking of 4 Bikers, IoN, 2 Meltas and a Champ w/P.Fist to hunt rhinos and the like. Even though they are I4 they are T4(6) which in close combat might make a difference. Fighting Guard would be funny....

 

@Jeske: I actually find myself agreeing with you. Strange times. I have always played Spawn as rolling for all movement, 2d6 for charging included. May not be optimal but Doesn't make too much difference.

[totgeboren]

I'm a bit confused about the comments regarding Plasma Pistols. What's this about two shots? A pistol may only fire a single shot. Or maybe you are thinking that you have two models armed with plasma pistols? But why not two with melta guns? They are better in every way, and cheaper.

 

By reading the entry, up to two models may swap their bolt pistol for a plasma pistol, or 'take' a meltagun/flamer/plasmagun.

 

So you are not even giving up your extra attack in close combat for that meltagun, but instead get a gun that does not get hot, has one point more strength, one point less Ap and the melta rule, all for the bargain cost of 5 pts cheaper!

[TheDarkApostle]

I'm a bit confused about the comments regarding Plasma Pistols. What's this about two shots? A pistol may only fire a single shot. Or maybe you are thinking that you have two models armed with plasma pistols? But why not two with melta guns? They are better in every way, and cheaper.

 

By reading the entry, up to two models may swap their bolt pistol for a plasma pistol, or 'take' a meltagun/flamer/plasmagun.

 

So you are not even giving up your extra attack in close combat for that meltagun, but instead get a gun that is does not get hot, has one point more strength, one point less Ap and the melta rule, all for the bargain cost of 5 pts cheaper!

If the carrier of the pistol was stationary (or counts as stationary because of something like Relentless) in their movement phase then they may fire their pistol twice in the shooting phase.

 

It's in the BBB :P

 

TDA

[totgeboren]

Nope, they removed that rule in 4:ed. It was true in 3:ed, but not in 4:th or 5:th.

 

All is says now regarding Pistols is that "they are effectively Assault 1 weapons with a range of 12" ", and that you can use it as a close combat weapon in the Assault Phase.

 

I got the rulebook in my lap...

[TheDarkApostle]

But I'm certain it was introduced in the 4'th edition rulebook? ^_^

 

Been a while I've read the big books though I'll admit.

 

TDA

[Warsmith Aznable]

@Max: I do take into consideration those abstract thoughts. I like fun,

 

Oh for sure, me too. I do all kinds of stuff that the numbers say is a bad idea. When I first started posting here I got told all the same stuff about Raptors and Bikers and The One List To Rule Them All. I butted heads with the Jeske and a couple others who said similar things, determined to play a different kind of game. But the "optimizers" aren't wrong, unfortunately. Even though I've got a bit more conservative in my list building I still like to play with units that other people would never field, which is why I say what I do about accepting the unforgiving nature of a game using certain units. I doubt I'll ever use 9 Oblits, but I do have 2 Daemon Princes now. I just had to figure out a way to model them to justify them in my idea for my warband. Flavor and theme is still paramount to me, as I spend way more time modeling and painting than I do playing. I'm just a different type of player with different goals than what we normally refer to as "competitive" players (and I don't use the word pejoratively anymore.)

[GeoWolf]

@Totgeboren: First I must give to you thanks. I have been completely misreading that bit in the Raptors options for years now. I have always read it as two pistols or one of the other options. I just feel foolish now. I was indeed referring to having two pistols though, not that they got more shots. But I must ask, seeing as how you trade the Bolt pistol for the Plasma pistol and the other options are part of that "option", don't you think one could argue that you lose the pistol when getting a Melta? All it says is "Up to two Raptors can replace their pistols with Plasma pistols for X points per model, or take one of the following:" I think the arguement could be made either way, as the word "take" is there, but it is not in a option of its own. I think that the RAI means for you to trade in your pistol for these as well, but the RAW is a little blurry. What other options are there that set up a precedent for this, where you don't have to trade in any weapons but rather just add to your stock setup?

 

@Max: My army changes almost every game, though I do hang on to my lists so I can use it again. But I am intrigued, do you have any WIP or such on your army, I think I would rather like to see it.

[Warsmith Aznable]

@Max: My army changes almost every game, though I do hang on to my lists so I can use it again. But I am intrigued, do you have any WIP or such on your army, I think I would rather like to see it.

 

I'm pretty sure I've never used the same list twice, myself! My WIP thread is linked in my signature. I just posted a Chaos Sorcerer I'm working on this evening. And I'm way behind in my LPC vow... :D