Relic+Sheild or Combi-Melta+Fist on Captain

[Jupiter]

I'm having a tough time deciding between the two following kits for my captain at lower points ranges (500-1000).

 

#1: Captain, Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Artificer Armor

 

#2: Captain, Relic Blade, Storm Shield

 

 

And for reference, the rest of my force at 500 points is roughly:

 

10-man tac with HB and plasma, mounted in rhino with hunter-killer; sgt w/ power weapon

6 Scouts with HB

 

 

 

Obviously the two captains serve two very different purposes... and I've done some reading on past threads (through the search function) and have come to the conclusion that both seem to be viable options.

 

Since I'm just trying to re-learn the 5th edition codex (it's been a while for me; I've spent too long on orks and dark eldar), what do you guys think? I'm gonna leave it up to your experience!

 

Also, for reference, I'm trying to build a very basic, stable, take-all-comers list.

 

 

Thanks!

[Lysimachus]

Well, the second option is widely held to be the Captain loadout so you can't go far wrong with that one. If you do want the other version, I'd suggest swapping CC weapons with your Sgt, as the Captain loses Initiative 5 with the fist, the Sgt only loses I4.

 

Actually, if you have the models for it, at 500 pts I'd suggest a Chappy/Libby as HQ. At that pts level 150(ish) is almost a third of your points, whereas a basic Chap/Lib is 100 (only a fifth) and doesn't desperately need any further upgrades.

[DarkGuard]

If you need to pick one go for the relic blade/SS option. As Strike Captain Lysimachus says it is the "the loadout" for the Captain, combining great offensive power with brilliant durability and still letting him strike at I5. Now the power fist/combi-melta set up may be better for this points level, as it gets you a very accurate melta shot and the power fist. However, the fact of the matter is it won't scale as well as the relic blade and storm shield it would be better to go with that unless you're fine paying for two Captain models.

 

As has been said, the power fist/combi-melta set up would be better on the Sergeant if you can afford to.

 

Perhaps a compromise though? A Captain with relic blade and combi-melta would still give you hard hitting offensive power at I5 while having that melta shot. The only downside is you're unlikely to use the boltgun too much and for an extra 5pts the storm shield would be more useful in the long run for a beatstick character.

 

And of course there is the Libby or the Chaplain, both good choices at this points level, while the Libby is certainly a fantastic choice in every army.

[Jupiter]

Thanks for the replies! I just went for a captain because it seemed to be the most basic/adaptable choice without really putting much thought into other choices. I'll look into builds for Chappys/Libbys today and see if I can save some points. Do you guys have any suggestions for loadouts for either of these given the small points scale? I'll do some research as well.

 

As for making a hard choice between the two, I have magnetized my captain's arms and have built up interchangeable sets of arms for both options.

 

I'm thinking of trying to work a lascannon into the list on a razorback, so maybe the anti-tank power of the first option isn't as critical as I once thought.

 

Good points about the I4 on the sergeant rather than the I5 on the captain in regards to the PF; I'll definitely keep that in mind.

[Muctar]

Thanks for the replies! I just went for a captain because it seemed to be the most basic/adaptable choice without really putting much thought into other choices. I'll look into builds for Chappys/Libbys today and see if I can save some points. Do you guys have any suggestions for loadouts for either of these given the small points scale? I'll do some research as well.

If you are interested in a chaplain on foot look into Cassius. For an extra 25 points above a basic chaplain you get a master crafted combi-flamer, hellfire rounds, and toughness 6. He's a real bargain.

[Mysticaria]

In small point games you have to take a librarian... some combination of Avenger, Might, Gate depending on what you want to do.

 

He's got:

- Cheapest HQ option available(100 points for power armor, bolt pistol, force weapon)

- 4x force weapon attacks on the charge (not that many big gribbly HQs to fight at low point levels)

- AP3 heavy flamer (not that many terminators around at low levels so this is pretty brutal)

- Almost has a Relic blade....Might of Ancients + force weapon = 2-3x S6 power weapon attacks (compare that to a captain)

- Ability to teleport (can save some points on a rhino, or get out of a tight spot)

- No invul save = not that big of a liability in low-point games... not that many big gribbly HQs to fight at low point levels)

 

Put him into a tactical squad with flamer and combiflamer and you've got a decent flamer unit at low points. That's going to put the hurt on even MEQ armies. Can even fit inside a razorback if you combat squad.

 

He's a cheap and effective way to get a decent legal army on the board. This 400 point core is the standard building block that I use for 500-750 games. It's a legal army in itself for only 400 points:

Libby - 100

Tac squad, heavy, special, combi, rhino - 215

Scouts, missile or heavy bolter - 85

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

No Null Zone? Presumably as mass invulnerable saves are quite rare at this points level I guess?

[Mysticaria]

No Null Zone? Presumably as mass invulnerable saves are quite rare at this points level I guess?

Exactly. You could take null zone, but at 500 points the only time it really comes into play is going after the enemy HQ. It's not bad, and I thought about including it in my post, but avenger is too good in low-point games and usually might or gate is going to do more than a null zone. The times when you want a null zone.... you REALLY want access to Null Zone, so I can see it as a viable option, but only in place of that second power (Gate or Might). Avenger is too good when the enemy probably only has 2-3 units with minimum troops.

 

As points go up, Null Zone becomes better (affects more percentage of enemy army) while Avenger becomes worse (affects lower percentage of enemy army).

 

-Myst

[MagicMan]

Just thought i'd say that if you do go for a captain, the Storm Shield is an expensive piece of kit for 1000 point games and lower.

 

He already comes with a 4+ Invulnerable save, so unless you're really worried about him, its probably not worth bumping it up to 3+ until larger games. :P

[Atlantic]

I may not be remembering this correctly, but I don't think you can give a captain a relic blade and a shield with the vanilla codex.

 

I believe relic blades are listed as 2 handed weapons.

[Tinnock]

I may not be remembering this correctly, but I don't think you can give a captain a relic blade and a shield with the vanilla codex.

 

I believe relic blades are listed as 2 handed weapons.

 

 

you can, but because there is some confusion over it, GW faq'd it its in the most recent space marine faq

[DarkGuard]

I may not be remembering this correctly, but I don't think you can give a captain a relic blade and a shield with the vanilla codex.

 

I believe relic blades are listed as 2 handed weapons.

 

Relic blades aren't 2 handed weapons. Well they are, but only in fluff description, which means absolutely nothing to their rules. In gameplay they are a weapon that hits at S6 (so no FC bonuses etc if you somehow get them) at initiative order, and don't get +1A for two CCW weapons no matter what else you have. No mention of two handed in the rules. Therefore perfectly legit to take it with a storm shield, or boltgun or even one of them and an auxiliary grenade launcher. Hey, Honour Guard can take a bolt pistol, power weapon, bolter and a relic blade! (And I modeled all of them for my Chapter Champion, it looks awesome.) I think the Honour Guard could take an aux. grenade launcher as well on top of those four weapons, those show offs.

 

But as Tinnock says there has been some confusion about this and so it was FAQed a while back:

 

Q. The rules for both the relic blade and the storm shield simply state that a model with one of these pieces of wargear cannot have +1 Attack for an additional close combat weapon. Is it therefore possible to equip a model with both a storm shield and a relic blade? (p99, 101)

A. The rules for two-handed weapons in the rulebook and the rules for storm shields and relic blades are not in contradiction. So you can have both a storm shield and a relic blade, which I think makes for rather cool models!

 

This is one my favourite FAQs, not because it validates what I said but because of the bit at the end, it's almost as if they're encouraging you to build relic blade and storm shield Captains, which is actually quite good advise from GW for a change :D.

[Atlantic]

Cool!

[Oppressor]

Just thought i'd say that if you do go for a captain, the Storm Shield is an expensive piece of kit for 1000 point games and lower.

 

He already comes with a 4+ Invulnerable save, so unless you're really worried about him, its probably not worth bumping it up to 3+ until larger games. :mellow:

 

This. Instead of a storm shield get artificer armor. Unless you decide to use a librarian.

[Montuhotep]

I'd be tempted to a chaplain instead of the librarian personally, although the comparisons can be a little off-kilter to a degree. Same points cost but you get power armour, an INV save, a boltpistol, re-rolls to hit, Fearless and a power weapon.

It is true that the Force Wep can one-kill characters which can be useful but at the size of games that the OP suggests are happening, being able to cut a reliable swathe through enemy scoring troops whilst ensuring your own guys can do a bunch of killing themselves is argueably more of a game-winner. Stick him with a Tactical squad, let's say, and you have a unit which can not only boot the other guy off an objective, but make sure you keep it yourself (unless he wheels out the big guns) It is true that an 'unpowered' Force Wep also counts as a Power wep so it can pull double duty in it's own right but because of the other supporting elements that the Chaplain can give what will be a small-sized force, the Chap get my vote.

 

Plus you get a dude in black festooned in skulls who can kick arse. What's more iconic for Astartes than that? :tu:

[DarkGuard]

I think you may be missing the point about having a Libarian Paladin7221, he's not a combat character, he's a support character. Quite a fantastic one at that. The Chaplain is a combat character with some support abilities, the Librarian is the reverse, a support character with some combat capabilities. If you're going to measure the Libby to the Chaplain based on combat then sure, Chaplain is the clear winner. But a Libby offers so much more to the army as a whole than a force weapon. Null Zone helps break down enemy rocks, Gate can enhance your mobility, Avenger your shooty damage, while your hood protects you from other psychic powers. At 500-1000pts, I'd always pick a Libby for his powers and hood.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I pick Librarians almost solely because of hoods. I can confidently say that psychic hoods have affected the outcomes of more games for me than the psychic powers that the Librarians have (but when the powers do affect the outcome, it is much more memorable).

 

Also, I advocate relic blade/storm shield, purely because Captains (and Chapter Masters) are the only way you're getting I5 into your army. And I dislike wasting that. In theory, there's not a lot of BS5 in the army either, but a Captain hasn't really got the options to fully leverage BS5.