Had my first game tonight.

[Thymebandit]

So are we doing this wrong or what?

My paladins go up against a carnifex brood- Initiatives get checked, hits and wounds get rolled. The carnifexes cannot take saves because of my NFS/Hammers, and I activate them to gain insta-kills. Is that right? 4 Paladins kill 3 carnifexes in one fell swoop? It seems kind of ridiculous and it made my wife cringe :)

 

 

I mean, Mordrak and his boys went on to tackle her two Hive Tyrants, who also have no invulnerable saves and are not immune to Instant Death. The result was Mordrak rolling 6's to hit (WS of the Tyrants being 8) and 5+'s to wound. They went down just easily. We went through her codex and the only thing they can be given is 2+ normal saves. Non of the units she fielded were immune to Instant Death either. I think by turn 3 of a 2500 point game, I had obliterated all but her Troops.

 

Is that the way it's supposed to go down, or are we misinterpreting something here?

[AnImA8]

lol yea that's pretty much it. Monstrous Creatures have a lot to fear from us.

 

She needs to be a bit more reserved with her MC's for this reason, either using them to bust tanks, or hunt very weakened squads.

 

Although if I'm not mistaken Force Weapon activation should set off Shadow in the Warp (I could be wrong, but I believe the Force Weapon "targets" the tyranid synapse creature.)

 

Realistically her best bet is to use a variety of mass low strength or str 8+ (ap 2-) shooting against your terminators/paladins, i.e. spamming Deathspitters and Devourers, or spamming Zoanthropes with Warp Lance.

[Thymebandit]

Ah, you are correct in that the Shadow in the Warp would make the test on 3d6 instead of 2 for activation there, only within 12 inches of a creature with the ability. It wouldn't have saved those poor Fexes D:

[greatcrusade08]

The result was Mordrak rolling 6's to hit (WS of the Tyrants being 8) and 5+'s to wound.

 

surely mordrak hits on 4s? unles they used that psycic ability gving him WS/BS1

[Thymebandit]

Im fairly certain it was something like that. All I remember was that it was epic and awe inspiring.

[Mr.darkness]

I would tell your wife to post a thread about GK vs tyranids on a tyrsnid forum. They might be able to help her as this is probably a common problem for tyranid players.

[nurglez]

I play with a paladin army, and I rarely have any trouble vs nids. I feel they fight at a handicap vs grey knights, due to multi wound creatures not liking force weapons. While shadow in the warp has an effect on force weapons, they will still get through sometimes. Had a wounded dreadknight take out 3 warriors like it was no trouble at all.

 

Tyranid hive is a decent forum, check it out.

[Drachnon]

shadow of the warp can be annoying but against terminators with a banner it has no effect due to their auto activation.

[nurglez]

Aye, though as I don't use banners I didn't put that :lol:

 

1 wound each on a squad of 3 carnifex's will wipe them out if you activate your force weapons. Sad but true...

[The Holy Heretic]

Yup, the abundance of force weapons, and the brotherhood of psykers rule were just a bad idea.

[Thymebandit]

Yer, she did. She laughed because there was an entire section of the forums dedicated to fighting GK. Apparently it is a huge problem. To be honest, even with the few times I didn't activate them, my abundance of Hammers made for a decent beat down anyways.

[Aidoneus]

Yeah, unless you're dealing with a brood of multiple monstrous-creatures, the psychic part of your force weapons is often just overkill. The reality is that a squad full of regular power weapons is usually enough to take down a monstrous creature, especially if you can give them Str5 (from hammerhand/might of titan) or lower the MC's toughness (rad grenades).

 

And it's not like tyranid players are any better off if they spam little gribblies, since our army-wide storm bolters tear through hordes like paper.

 

As both a GK and tyranid player, I can really only think of 2 narrow categories of tyranid units that the GK would have a slightly harder time dealing with. First, tough shooting units, such as hive guard, devourer tyrants, or tyrannofexes. Second, high-initiative assault troops that can deny armour saves, such as genestealers or warriors with lash whip and bone sword.

 

Of course, the GK can still counter those units. Psycannons will take down big things at range after a little while, and fast units of interceptors or NDKs can chase down shooty units. In combat, simply hiding in terrain (or using sanctuary) will let the GKs strike first, in which case they will usually win combat even against those nasty squads of warriors and 'stealers, especially if the GK player took psychotroke grenades. So the unfortunate reality is that nid players are just really fighting an uphill battle against GK.

[Chain Axe]

I was wondering about this. I have just started playing as my lads are both 40k players. I have a chaos force, one of my lads has a grey knight army, I was thinking of getting a daemon prince or 2, I take it they would suffer from the same problems as the tyranids here.

[Gentlemanloser]

Worse...

 

Being Daemons, the GK would get Prefered Enemy rerolls in CC, and the DPs would be subject to Psyk-out grenades.

 

At least Chaos Deamons DPs are Eternal Warrior. But then that's what we've got Daemonbane for...

 

GW *really* gave Chaos/Daemons a hard time versus the GK. I'm tempted ot say they actually went too far, and it's overkill.

[number6]

I would tell your wife to post a thread about GK vs tyranids on a tyrsnid forum. They might be able to help her as this is probably a common problem for tyranid players.

Been playing Tyranids competitively in tournaments ever since their new codex. Dark Eldar and Grey Knights just slaughter them wholesale. :(

 

GKs are actually more mobile than Tyranids.

GKs are more resilient than Tyranids.

GKs are better shooters than Tyranids.

GKs are better assaulters than Tyranids.

 

So, in what phase of the game can Tyranids hope to gain any advantage whatsoever? :(

 

Icing on the cake: Tyranids have no answer to Init 6 Force Weapons. (SitW only stuffs 50% of the attempts, and banners get around SitW entirely.)

 

Shy of a GK player taking an awful list AND playing rather poorly, there is no hope for the 'nids.

[The Holy Heretic]

Yup, the only thing the nids have on the GK is that a horde of claws just look awesome :(

 

@OP GWs games are infamous for their lack of balance. The purpose of the game is NOT, nor have it ever been, to provide a challenging game experience. Instead their purpose is to give collectors a venue to display their their minis once painted, and an excuse for making up stories and pew pew noises :(

 

Since you're playing a close group (your wife), look upon the rules as guidelines to having some fun and adjust things to balance them between you e.g. Have your wife field twice your points, or nerf your GK to 'only' issue force weapons to characters, while the rest has power weapons.

 

You've got the chance for so much more fun than the 'limited' tournament players. Look up old army lists like genestealer cults, or have your knights fight alongside the imperial guard vs. the hive mind. Go with a permissive 'Wouldn't it be cool, if..." attitude and just have fun.

[Gentlemanloser]

there is no hope for the 'nids.

 

Careful Number6!

 

I had this as a response when I mentioned that nids (and orks) had little chance versus the new GKs;

 

Aparently you are either joking or havent met a good player yet?

 

;)

[AnImA8]

there is no hope for the 'nids.

 

Careful Number6!

 

I had this as a response when I mentioned that nids (and orks) had little chance versus the new GKs;

 

Aparently you are either joking or havent met a good player yet?

 

;)

 

lol spot on XD

[Abaddonshand]

With tyranids as my Xenos force, I feel particularly bad unleashing my grey knights upon them. It's frankly ridiculous what even a sub-optimised GK list will do to even the hardest tournament NID list.

[Commander Sasha]

As a 'Nid player (well, rats-as-Nids), I would agree that a well-tuned GK list is hard for us, but only some of them are nigh-on unbeatable.

 

If you and your wife are evenly matched as players, the biggest issue is the force weapon vs no Invul/no Eternal Warrior; someone earlier suggested house ruling that only characters get Force weapons; alternatively try giving any 'Nid in Synapse range Eternal Warrior, as it was in the previous codex.

 

Attacking into cover is also bad for us; giving everything that has the Move Through Cover rule Assault grenades could help a lot too.

 

These are all ideas that have been suggested on thetyranidhive to help against GK.

 

Try playing a few mirror games; strengths and weaknesses of armies and units suddenly appear that you hadn't noticed before when you're at the other end of the barrel!

[Gentlemanloser]

lol spot on XD

 

I actually agree with Number6 though. :D

 

As I said in the original thread, I now know no one that players either Tyranids or Orks now, and neither Codex has anything i it that remotely worries me. In the slightest.

 

Maybe come sixth, or in another 5 years time when they get new Dexes.

 

:lol:

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

And it's not like tyranid players are any better off if they spam little gribblies, since our army-wide storm bolters tear through hordes like paper.

Nah, you can give huge swarms (20+) FnP via Tervigons which drastically reduces the effectiveness of Storm Bolters. Remember that 16 S5 Storm Bolter shots and 4 PC shots (about 7-8 dead Gaunts per shooting phase) cost 240 pts. on a 10 men Strike Squad without hammer and transport, you can get quite a lot of gribblies for the points. And not all GK lists have an abundance of Purifiers to fill that gap.

If I were a Nid player I would play against knights:

-huge hordes of cheap Gaunts and a huge number of Tervigons to spam additional cannon fodder and to reliably get catalyst off (even when the opponent has a hood). Swarm the Knights and try to force as many GK units into CC as possible. Knights have only a limited number of squads on the table and any of them stuck in CC drastically reduces the armies overall shooting effectivness which allows bigger stuff to get into close combat.

- Some Genestealers thrown into the hordes of gaunts. Once you get them into CC the Knights will be finished.

- Use a unit of 2-3 venomtrophes to increase the resistance of the hordes (5+ cover save + FnP against small arms fire). Fill the rest of the elite slots with Hive Guard or Zoantrophes.

-Only use MCs with Shadow in the Warp. Everything else is just begging to be insta-killed.

-If the opponent uses Purifiers they are your priority targets for your shooting. Take them out ASAP before they block your hordes.

 

Don't play against GK using anti Tyranid lists. Don't waste your time.

[AnImA8]

lol spot on XD

 

I actually agree with Number6 though. ;)

 

As I said in the original thread, I now know no one that players either Tyranids or Orks now, and neither Codex has anything i it that remotely worries me. In the slightest.

 

Maybe come sixth, or in another 5 years time when they get new Dexes.

 

:rolleyes:

 

lol really? I'm sorry to hear that you don't have any Nids or Orks players in your area man. In my hometown gaming group (been away for college) they've been telling me that despite the "odds" the nids players there have gotten GK's figured out. Supposedly really even, back and forth games.

 

I think Ragnar_Blackmane's got the right idea. We may have an answer for literally everything in their codex, but they also do actually have an answer to everything in ours as well. They don't even have to deviate from the standards of their normal tournament lists that much. In fact the most change they'll have to consider will have to be to their playstyle.

 

I just don't believe any claim about any army always losing to any other.

[Gentlemanloser]

Facing hordes of gribblies in CC?

 

I'd laught, eat them, then force more deaths through fearless saves.

 

That's if the gribblies could;

 

Get past my H Incinerator NDKs

Open my Transports after the Hive Guard have bought it

 

There is nothing in the 'nid dex that gives me pause for thought.

 

Sure, anyone can win any game. That's the downside with d6's. But I tend not to worry about games where I can't make a 2+ save to save my life, and my opponent can't stop rolling 6's. Them games, you just have to shrug off as a tribute to the Dice God and have a laugh.

 

In genral, when the dice are rolling averagely and/or the mission isn't set up to give the 'nids an advantage, I wouldn't break a sweat.

 

As for Orks, hell I could be rolling all 1's and still beat them. :rolleyes:

[number6]

As far as the facts go, Gentlemanloser has it right. I play both armies, and have been on both sides of the table as either army.

 

Sadly, GKs trump literally everything that the Tyranids supposedly have as their strentghs.

 

High toughness MCs that are therefore difficult to wound and ignore armor saves with their close combat strikes? None of them (except the Swarmlord) can go before an init 6 force weapon. (And the Swarmlord can only go at the same time.)

 

Synapse to make the hordes fearless? Worthless when your typical armour save is only 6+ or 5+ while GKs win every close combat. And they will win every close combat. FNP can't give you any help against the initial wounds inflicted.

 

Speaking of Synapse, guess how survivable any Tervigon, Hive Tyrant, Prime, or Trygon Prime is against mindstrike missiles from stormravens. (Hint: they aren't.)

 

Did I mention Init 6 force weapons? GKs look at things like Trygons and think: well, if our psycannons don't happen to kill it, it'll die before it even gets to twitch a scything talon.

 

Genestealers are the only unit that potentially could kill GKs. But they can't ever reach close combat. Incinerators and stormbolters kill them dead instantly. FNP doesn't help anywhere near enough.

 

You have to purposefully gimp the GK army somehow in order to get a competitive game out of it. Rather than tweak the rules, I'd just spot them an additional 50% more points. Otherwise, there's really no fun in playing the game when the outcome is a forgone conclusion.