Honour Guard? How useful are they?

[AGPO]

Depends on the meta. For clearing gone to ground objective holding units flamers (esp. heavy flamers) are great. A scout unit with camo cloaks in a reinforced building or gone to ground are almost impossible to shift. However, heavy flamers clear them out no problem. Likewise a conventional flamer is great for clearing out pesky guard units that are hunkered down.

[appiah4]

Depends on the meta. For clearing gone to ground objective holding units flamers (esp. heavy flamers) are great. A scout unit with camo cloaks in a reinforced building or gone to ground are almost impossible to shift. However, heavy flamers clear them out no problem. Likewise a conventional flamer is great for clearing out pesky guard units that are hunkered down.

If you're already within Flamer range, even tactical squads can clear out hunkered pesky guard units by assaulting them and subsequently sweeping advancing. There's very little beyond a couple Tyranid units, Ork Boyz and Scarab Swarms that you would actually need or want Flamers to deal with.

[knife&fork]

If you're already within Flamer range, even tactical squads can clear out hunkered pesky guard units by assaulting them and subsequently sweeping advancing. There's very little beyond a couple Tyranid units, Ork Boyz and Scarab Swarms that you would actually need or want Flamers to deal with.

 

You must have a nice and comfy meta. No DCAs, no stealers, no guard PW blobs, no grey hunters?

[appiah4]

If you're already within Flamer range, even tactical squads can clear out hunkered pesky guard units by assaulting them and subsequently sweeping advancing. There's very little beyond a couple Tyranid units, Ork Boyz and Scarab Swarms that you would actually need or want Flamers to deal with.

 

You must have a nice and comfy meta. No DCAs, no stealers, no guard PW blobs, no grey hunters?

 

I already called out most of what you mentioned as the very few exceptions (Some Tyranid units), but seriously, Flamers against Grey Hunters? Guardsman PW blobs? What chance do Guard PW blobs have against a full tactical squad charging them? They'll probably kill a couple Marines, lose the combat, fail their LD and get overrun.

[knife&fork]

I already called out most of what you mentioned as the very few exceptions (Some Tyranid units), but seriously, Flamers against Grey Hunters? Guardsman PW blobs? What chance do Guard PW blobs have against a full tactical squad charging them? They'll probably kill a couple Marines, lose the combat, fail their LD and get overrun.

 

A GH squad in cover with the standard stuff like a banner and mark is not something your PF+melta assault squad will trash, tac squad even less.

 

A large combined squad with commissars will easily win combat against a tac squad or small assault squad/HG.

 

But we are getting off topic. The thread was about honor guard after all.

 

A better question would be: If we are taking the shooty melta approach, is it worth 20 pts to put the flamers in there or are the points and equipment slots better used for something else?

 

I say that the flamers are worth taking because they help with situations and units that BA otherwise struggle with.

[Morollan]

Don't underestimate flamer spam. Quantity is a quality of it's own.

 

Shoot a squad with 4 meltas and the maximum amount of guys you can kill is 4. Shoot him with 4 flamers and you'll most likely triple or quadruple that figure even if the average number of wounds is the same.

 

With T4, 3+ and FNP you have to squeeze a shedload of models under a flamer template to come close to the damage you're likely to take from a similar number of meltas. You're only going to kill 1 in 6 models that you get with a flamer. Yes there are more saves to roll and you can't do as much with wound allocation but I'm not sure that really makes up for the ability to take an armour save and get FNP on any fails.

 

Not quite sure what you are arguing against here? We seem to be in an agreement that both weapons have different situations where they excel. What I think people does is overestimate the usefulness of melta for taking on infantry. In addition to what I've posted earlier any sort of inv save or cover will severely limit the effectiveness of the melta shots while having zero effect on the flamer which relies on weight of numbers.

 

My argument is really that the situations in which a flamer "excels" (6+ targets under a template) are very rare and not generally situations in which BA need assistance in the first place. Would much rather have a melta to pop vehicles than a flamer to deal with hordes.

[appiah4]

A GH squad in cover with the standard stuff like a banner and mark is not something your PF+melta assault squad will trash, tac squad even less.

 

And you think a Flamer here will actually do jack instead? Think again.

 

A large combined squad with commissars will easily win combat against a tac squad or small assault squad/HG.

 

Seriously? Even against their PW attacks the Tactical Squad will be saving with T4 vs S3, not to mention they'll be attacking at I4 (maybe even I5). The tactical squad would simply stomp over any IG blob, Comissar or not.

 

But we are getting off topic. The thread was about honor guard after all.

 

Not really, we're discussing HG loadouts and you are arguing the merits of a Flamer which I do not see. That sounds uncannily like you are losing faith in your own argument and would rather shift the subject.

[JamesI]

For me flamers are useful against Orks, Genestealers and some demons.

 

But generally its not worth the points.

[knife&fork]

My argument is really that the situations in which a flamer "excels" (6+ targets under a template) are very rare and not generally situations in which BA need assistance in the first place. Would much rather have a melta to pop vehicles than a flamer to deal with hordes.

 

That's one very specific example, and one where you seem to assume that there is no cover and the meltas will autohit and autokill. There are many instances where the flamer is more effective than a melta. In an assault squad you take the meltas because you need to open tanks and transports, we are talking about the honorguard which is free to take both.

 

We roll dice in this game, we don't apply a set damage percentage. If the flamers can produce a similar number of casualties as the meltas they are superior because they can potentially kill a lot more models and they make wound allocation difficult giving you a chance to remove key models.

 

 

And you think a Flamer here will actually do jack instead? Think again.

 

 

Seriously? Even against their PW attacks the Tactical Squad will be saving with T4 vs S3, not to mention they'll be attacking at I4 (maybe even I5). The tactical squad would simply stomp over any IG blob, Comissar or not.

 

4 meltas will kill 1-2 MEQ in cover on average, easily allocated to unimportant models. 4 flamers assuming 4 hits each (a low end figure for such a mobile unit) brings that figure up to 2-3 wounds with little room for wound allocation games.

 

Yes, seriously. Assuming the typical blob they will produce a similar amount of wounds with IG having the benefit of stubborn in case they get edged out. After the first assault phase the advantage shifts sharply in favor of the guard blob.

[Morollan]

My argument is really that the situations in which a flamer "excels" (6+ targets under a template) are very rare and not generally situations in which BA need assistance in the first place. Would much rather have a melta to pop vehicles than a flamer to deal with hordes.

 

That's one very specific example, and one where you seem to assume that there is no cover and the meltas will autohit and autokill. There are many instances where the flamer is more effective than a melta. In an assault squad you take the meltas because you need to open tanks and transports, we are talking about the honorguard which is free to take both.

 

We roll dice in this game, we don't apply a set damage percentage. If the flamers can produce a similar number of casualties as the meltas they are superior because they can potentially kill a lot more models and they make wound allocation difficult giving you a chance to remove key models.

 

Flamers have their uses but I don't consider them in any way to be superior to melta. A melta is effective against any target (other than an Avatar) whereas flamers have no effect on most vehicles. The targets against which flamers are most effective are low toughness and poor save models in large numbers, tightly bunched. And personally I have no problem dealing with such targets in any event.

[Atlantic]

See, I prefer Honour Guard to Sanguinary Guard any day (with the obvious exception of running Dante). I never run Dante and feel like I get a whole lot more flexibility out of the Honour Guard.

 

Yes they don't have a 2 up, but they do have an in built priest and you can basically give them whatever weapons you want. They also do not take up a force organization slot.

 

If you try to use them as Sanguinary guard you don't quite get the same benefits per point spent, but it isn't a great difference.

 

Sanguinary Guard with a chapter banner, a couple of infernus pistols, and a power fist, will run you 285 points to hit at initiative 4.

 

Honour Guard kitted out with Jump Packs, a Blood Champion, a Power Fist, the Chapter Banner, and your choice of other power weapons or melta guns is going to be not that much more and they will all have furious charge.

 

You won't get the re rolls, but you aren't paying for furious charge or feel no pain.

[JamesI]

See, I prefer Honour Guard to Sanguinary Guard any day (with the obvious exception of running Dante). I never run Dante and feel like I get a whole lot more flexibility out of the Honour Guard.

 

Yes they don't have a 2 up, but they do have an in built priest and you can basically give them whatever weapons you want. They also do not take up a force organization slot.

 

If you try to use them as Sanguinary guard you don't quite get the same benefits per point spent, but it isn't a great difference.

 

Sanguinary Guard with a chapter banner, a couple of infernus pistols, and a power fist, will run you 285 points to hit at initiative 4.

 

Honour Guard kitted out with Jump Packs, a Blood Champion, a Power Fist, the Chapter Banner, and your choice of other power weapons or melta guns is going to be not that much more and they will all have furious charge.

 

You won't get the re rolls, but you aren't paying for furious charge or feel no pain.

you overcosted the SG. What you listed is 260 (did you give them Masks too, which are pretty close to useless I think).

 

Honor Guard are better as a shooty unit, with the options of 4 plasmas, meltas or flamers. SG I think are better in combat (or at least better for the cost, HG get really expensive really fast when designed for combat)

[Atlantic]

Sorry

Didnt have the codex in front of me.

 

They are expensive, but only if you take the novitiate out of the equation.

 

I think he and the versatility in how you can equip them is what seals the deal even if you kit them out for cc.

[JamesI]

Sorry

Didnt have the codex in front of me.

 

They are expensive, but only if you take the novitiate out of the equation.

 

I think he and the versatility in how you can equip them is what seals the deal even if you kit them out for cc.

It depends. I find actual priests more versatile as I can move them where I want them. I prefer that to the Novitiate who is stuck in the HG. There are advantages either way. The SG with priest also can have everyone with a power weapon, while the Novitiate can't get one (This may become less important if wound allocation changes in 6th edition)

[Atlantic]

Agreed

 

If you put a priest with sanguinary guard though you are now paying another 375 which ends up being more than honour guard.

 

 

I do like how the priest in the hguard squad can't be singled out as he is not an independent character.

 

 

I have heard they are changing wound allocation to be based upon save value rather than equipment carried. I think that would probably be good.

[Mezkh]

My current Stormraven squad is Astorath, and a Honor Guard with Champion, Powerweapon, Banner/Fist, Flamer, and Sang Priest.

 

Killy, Fluffy, and fun.