GLs GK Codex wishlist changes

[Gentlemanloser]

More than likely highly OP, but here are some ways in how think our new Codex should have worked.

 

Points are just examples. :P (It's late, most of these are off the top of my head! :lol:)

 

 

Grey Knight Special Rules

 

True Grit / Wrist Mounted Storm Bolters: GKs are able to use Wrist Mounted Storm Bolters as addtional CCWs.

 

 

Grey Knight Units

 

Grey Knight Brother Captains: Removed. Not sure. Will think more on these.

 

Brotherhood Champions: 2W, 2A (with The Perfect Warrior), Digital Weapons removed. Add an option to purchase a Personal Teleporter.

 

Grey Knights Terminators: Have the option to replace thier Storm Bolter with a Storm Shield for 'x' points.

 

Grey Knight Strike Squads: Cost Increase to 25/26 points. Remove Deep Strike. If they purchase a Dedicated Transport, they have the Scout USR. If they don't purchase a Dedicated Transport they must choose one of the following: Either take Personal Teleporters or Take the Infiltrate USR. (Edit: Justicar can purchase a Teleport Homer. To hlep the incoming army they're supposed ot have already set up for...)

 

Purgation Squad: Cost updated to the Same as Strikes, in return they gain BS5 and Artificer Armour. Astral Aim now increases the Range of thier Weapons by 12" (does nothing for LoS, doesn't not grant cover), Incerators powered by Astral Aim now fire like Heavy Incinerators.

 

Paladin: Have the option to take a Storm Shield in addition to current Weapons for 'x' points. Apothecaries are not allowed to purchase a Storm Shield.

 

Techmarines: Gain 2W. Have the option to replace thier Servo Harness with a Personal Teleporter for 'x' points.

 

Interceptors: Removed, merged back with thier Strike Squad origin.

 

New Fast slot unit: Knight Interceptor. Nemesis Dreadknight with the Personal Teleport option. All other options remian unchanged.

 

Nemesis DreadKnight: Remove option to purchase a Personal Teleporter. Gains the ability to purchase the same Ranged Weapon twice.

 

Dreadnought: Removed. All GK Dreadnoughts are Venerable Dreadnoughts.

 

Venerable Dreadnought: Points cost reduced slightly. Option to purchase a Nemesis Greatsword for 'x' points.

 

Ghost Knights: Points cost reduced to 30 points.

 

Castellan Garran Crowe: Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr, which gives bonuses ot enemies as usual, but he now uses an Annointed Blade, like other Brotherhood Champions. Gains 3W and 3A (while retaining The Perfect Warrior). Can purchase a unit of 1-9 Purifiers (no Keeper of the Flame) as a retinue for Crowe.

 

Lord Kaldor Draigo: The Titansword is now a Nemesis Force Sword. Yup, Draigo just gained a 2++ save in CC.

 

 

Grey Knight Wargear

 

Nemesis Greatswords and Nemesis Daemon Hammers: Are now 2 handed Weapons.

 

Nemesis Greatswords used in conjunction with a Storm Shield give a 2+ Invulnerable Save in CC, just like the Nemesis Force Staff.

 

Nemesis Force Staff has is points reduced. A Lot.

 

Nemesis Falchions: Gain the 'Parry' ability. This confers a 5++ save in CC only.

 

Psilencer (and Gattling Psilencer) has it's AP increased to AP3.

 

 

That's all for now! :P

[The Holy Heretic]

What an amazing wishlist.

 

But you're lacking Vindicare Turbo-Penetrator rounds for everybody. And a SC librarian with Emperors Light: make a psychic test, if successful you win the game ^_^

[Azatoth]

How dare GW make the SM elites so weak!!

Really now this is an excellent example for power gamer dreams.

[Oiad]

...have to admire GL's bravery but I can't help but feel many others will crucify these ideas. Still, 2++ in combat all-around army = Hammernators crying... (heck, everyone else will)

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL.

 

Points. It's all balanced by points.

 

We *have* 2++ saves in CC already (thanks Warding Stave) but no one uses them, becuase they cost too much.

 

Make the SS 30 points + on Pallies. 25 on Terminators, or the like.

 

Adjust the points until they're a choice.

 

Still, 2++ in combat all-around army = Hammernators crying...

 

A Hammernator costs (the quite frankly cheap) 40 points. Make a Pallies cost over double with a SS. 55 base, 85+ for a SS one. Double the cost of a nilla Hammernator, 2W but you get half the amount. And you're still weak to ID.

 

Not everyone's cup of tea. ^_^

 

Really now this is an excellent example for power gamer dreams.

 

Fluff meets rules.

 

Why are purgation squads in PA? As the best shots in the elitist of the elite army are they still the same BS as 'normal' marines? How the heack do Strikes fulfil thier role of getting to vital objective/positions *ahead* of the rest of the GKs? The BC sucks. Crowe sucks.

 

Why are we unable to purchase three Stormravens, and fill them with the :): troops *designed* to fit in them. Bangles have *no* problem filling three Stormravens with Jump Troops, but ours are limited ot 2 Ravens and a 10 man Interceptor Squad combat Squadded, becuase they share the same FoC slot. Stupid.

 

Why do we have no ICs that can actually attach themselves to our Jump troops? Stupid.

 

Why can't the NDK take two of the same ranged weapon and to make use of it's MC status?

 

The GKs don't have a lot of Dreads. Why do we have both normal and Vens? All our Dreads should be (like the old codex) Venerable.

 

Falchions are never taken. Nor are Psilencers. A bolt made of *pure* Psychic energy, and it's stopped by PA. Maybe being AP3 some might actually use them. 24" range AP3 on a Terminator. Can't pop a transport for toffee though. Drop it to Heavy 4 though, I'd be fine with that. :D Yes, with a Psychic Test, Purgation Squads could have a Heavy Weapon that kills mairines at 36" range! Perish the thought! ;)

 

Why the heck have we wrist mounted our SB, if they aren't supposed to let us use them in conjunction with holding a big ;): weapon in both hands? For the rule of Cool? Stupid.

 

But you're lacking Vindicare Turbo-Penetrator rounds for everybody. And a SC librarian with Emperors Light: make a psychic test, if successful you win the game

 

Nah, the Vindicare's got to have somthing useful, to make him wanted. ;) He keeps Turbo Pens and shield Breakers!

 

Don't we have that psychic power already? ;) Well, versus Chaos Daemons anyway...

[Morollan]

You do know that the "Marines from the Movies" rules were not intended to be taken seriously? And that rules in general do not match fluff because it would create ridiculously unbalanced forces that nobody would ever play against? Grey Knights are absolulely fine the way they are. The Codex is, if anything, already slightly OP without even considering your proposed changes, which would push it so far over the top it would be in the next bloody trench!

[Gentlemanloser]

I've got the Movie Marines rules, and they are significantly different. :o

 

I'm not advocating the "10 Marines taking out a craftworld" suggestion form the fluff. But rather making the dex function the way the dev has tried ot make it.

 

I'm actually *really* interesting in knowing what folk think are the AMG OP!! details from my suggestions.

 

The 2++ in CC? We have that already. Even if Staves weren't limited, do you really think people would take whole squads of them? I don't. I see people taking 1/2 SS's in a squad to suck incoming Las/Plas fire.

 

The change to Strikes? The points increase is two fold. To represent gaining a USR to make them function in the role they were designed to fill, and to make the compariosn between Strikes and Termies better. The devs invisioned a GK army being filled with it's core troops as GKT, which doesn't happen, becuase Strikes *are* better. Upping their cost makes GKT more attractive.

 

The changes to BCs and Crowe? Really? That's OP?

 

A techy gaining an option to take a PT? Allowing us a couple of ICs to attach to our 'interceptors'.

 

Maybe it's the NDK having the ability to run 'mortis' style that op?

 

Is an AP3 S4 weapon just too good for marines to have? Are Psilencers OP?

 

An option to give us CC dreads to fit in our Stormravens? Why would anyone really want to carry a dread in one? The only use currently is to move a MM dread (and who uses MM dreads?) as we're denied Drop Pods.

 

What's the problems?

[Tankred]

For the stormshieldthingy: Why not the option from the old dex: swap the weapons for a stormshield and a thunderhammer (in this special case it would be a ndh) for no cost? Pro: shield and hammer, con: No woundgroups.

[Oiad]

Still, 2++ in combat all-around army = Hammernators crying...

LoL.

 

Points. It's all balanced by points.

...

Helps to have the points to judge them by. For all I knew at the time, they may only have costed 5pts and their storm-bolter.

 

A Hammernator costs (the quite frankly cheap) 40 points. Make a Pallies cost over double with a SS. 55 base, 85+ for a SS one. Double the cost of a nilla Hammernator, 2W but you get half the amount. And you're still weak to ID.

And what about on my more easily spamable GKTs?

 

EDIT: Mind, at those suggested prices few will bother with them anyway.

[Morollan]

The 2++ in CC? We have that already. Even if Staves weren't limited, do you really think people would take whole squads of them? I don't. I see people taking 1/2 SS's in a squad to suck incoming Las/Plas fire.

 

It's not just 2++ in cc though is it? It's 3++ all the time. You claim that you're trying to make the changes that are needed to bring the codex in line with what the developer wanted yet the entire codex includes only one storm shield! That's on a special character who the author specifically removed the Nemesis Greatsword from, so as to remove the 2++ in combat (something that you've also given back). How are you making the codex 'how it should be' by doing something that the author has very deliberately steered away from?

 

The change to Strikes? The points increase is two fold. To represent gaining a USR to make them function in the role they were designed to fill, and to make the compariosn between Strikes and Termies better. The devs invisioned a GK army being filled with it's core troops as GKT, which doesn't happen, becuase Strikes *are* better. Upping their cost makes GKT more attractive.

 

You have given them either Infiltrate or Personal Teleporters plus the option for a teleport homer. And you think this makes them less attractive? You don't think that the ability to place a scoring unit pretty much anywhere on the table by turn 2 and have them bring in the rest of your army from reserve with no scatter might be slightly abused? Plus having troops that are more expensive than the elites seems a little strange, although I'm sure it's happened in other codexes at some point.

 

The changes to BCs and Crowe? Really? That's OP?

 

As for Crowe, well you just removed pretty much all of his weaknesses so you don't think we will be seeing entire armies of Purifiers (again, totally against the fluff you claim to be honouring).

 

A techy gaining an option to take a PT? Allowing us a couple of ICs to attach to our 'interceptors'.

 

Hurrah, Interceptors with cheap, comedy grenades.

 

Is an AP3 S4 weapon just too good for marines to have?

 

Yes. not only are GK's already marine killers in combat, you also want them to be marine killers at 24"?

 

Are Psilencers OP?

 

As they are? No. With AP3? Damn right they are!

 

An option to give us CC dreads to fit in our Stormravens? Why would anyone really want to carry a dread in one? The only use currently is to move a MM dread (and who uses MM dreads?) as we're denied Drop Pods.

 

Not sure exactly what you've done with dreads. Is the greatsword in addition to the DCCW? If so, +1 attack and rerolls to hit, wound and pen is a tad OP, yes.

 

What's the problems?

 

See above.

[Gentlemanloser]

Helps to have the points to judge them by. For all I knew at the time, they may only have costed 5pts and their storm-bolter.

 

Those points weren't edited in. ;) There were there form last nights OP. :P

 

EDIT: Mind, at those suggested prices few will bother with them anyway.

 

Exactly! :D If they're slightly too high, lower them by 5 points or so. Until they're an option you might take. But aren't must haves or won't touches!

 

For the stormshieldthingy: Why not the option from the old dex: swap the weapons for a stormshield and a thunderhammer (in this special case it would be a ndh) for no cost? Pro: shield and hammer, con: No woundgroups.

 

I think for 40 points TH/SS Termies with 'nades and the rest of the good stuff our GKT get, they would be *very* undercosted. ;) Especially S10 TH/SS as standard. ;)

 

It's not just 2++ in cc though is it? It's 3++ all the time. You claim that you're trying to make the changes that are needed to bring the codex in line with what the developer wanted yet the entire codex includes only one storm shield! That's on a special character who the author specifically removed the Nemesis Greatsword from, so as to remove the 2++ in combat (something that you've also given back). How are you making the codex 'how it should be' by doing something that the author has very deliberately steered away from?

 

Becuase Ward got *a heck of a lot* wrong. ;) Draigo is a beast, sure. His NFS not being a NFS is a cheap gimmick to not give him a NWS in CC. Heck, bump his cost to 300 points if necessary, but give him the MC NFS he *should* have.

 

And yes, we lack Invulnerable saves in Ranged. There is no logical reason the GK woudln't have access to SS. If it's for balance reasons, make them cost, so it's a choice.

 

And Pallies/GKT with SS would still be torrented down with Bolters. Now, you'd have less of them, in order to maybe take a few more Lascannon hits.

 

You have given them either Infiltrate or Personal Teleporters plus the option for a teleport homer. And you think this makes them less attractive?

 

I fear you miss the point. They cost got increased, to make 'nilla GKT more attractive. In order for them to be given a role people would want to use them in, they were given a USR that actually helps them do the role the designer wanted for them. So there's a choice between GKT and PAGK. They do different things. PAGK no longer outshoot, outlive and out CC GKT.

 

Sure, you could make an all infiltrating PAGK army, and it would be fluffy. Or you could take a unit or two to help the rest of your DSing GKT in. Multiple ways to play. What's not to like? Infiltrating Strikes would still fail facing other GKs Servo Skulls. ;)

 

As for Crowe, well you just removed pretty much all of his weaknesses so you don't think we will be seeing entire armies of Purifiers (again, totally against the fluff you claim to be honouring).

 

Apart from the enemy to hit and FC? The largest weaknesses he had (apart from the stupid non IC). Is there any logical reaosn you can think of he wouldn't be using an Annointed Blade? Up his cost by 25 or so if you think he's now to good.

 

As for the armies of purifiers, it's all personal choice. If they're fluffy now, they'd still be fluffy after the change. It's not like *no one* uses Crowe to run Puri's as troops now, is it? And well, making Striks more useful and GKT more attrative, would lower the desire to skip these 'unwanted' units and run full Prui lists.

 

So it's win all round, right? ;)

 

Hurrah, Interceptors with cheap, comedy grenades.

 

The objection here seems to be the 'nades themsevels, not the ability to give a Techmarine a PT. A BC with a PT is ok right? So Interceptors with rerolls on the charge is alright?

 

Yes. not only are GK's already marine killers in combat, you also want them to be marine killers at 24"? <snip> As they are? No. With AP3? Damn right they are!

 

We're already marine killers at 24" range... How many Psiliencers are used now? None? Using a Psilencer wouldn't be in a vacuum. Every 24" range Marine killer you equip means you've just lost your ability to pop transports at 24" range. AP3 means little if all the marines are inside Rhinos. Sure, you can mix and match. But that's great isn't it? Lower Tank killing prowess for more anti infantry? They still bounce of TEQ. Oh and there's a lot of 4+ cover in this edition anyway.

 

Not sure exactly what you've done with dreads. Is the greatsword in addition to the DCCW? If so, +1 attack and rerolls to hit, wound and pen is a tad OP, yes.

 

It would be just like the NDK Greatsword. No extra attacks, S6, but rerolls. I suppose we should also have an option to leave our Dreads with 2 Doomfists as well...

[The Holy Heretic]

My 10 cents.

 

HQs: a power armoured (optional jump) - with more than 1 wound. GK terminator HQs get an optional 'slot free' paladin choice, power armoured get a 'slot free' purifier/interceptor slot.

Troops: remove GK options. insert imperial storm troopers / adeptus arbites. As the GKs are the dedicated anti-chaos, they need to be rare and this reflected in army builds.

Elites: as is. Techmarines get teleport option.

Fast attack: Interceptors.

Heavy Support as is.

 

Storm Raven, Land Raiders, 'backs and rhinos are dedicated transports available to GK units.

Chimeras and valkyries are dedicated transports to henchmen/ists/arbites.

 

Force weapons reserved for GK HQs/walkers/MCs, rest has power weapons :D

 

Psilencers are 36", S8 vs. Ld, AP- and ignore invulnerable (not cover) saves.

 

Now its a unique army in its composition :P

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you field a Grey Knight army?

 

That was one of the biggest design staples for the new 'dex.

 

I mean, it's the name and everything! :D

 

Edit: I quite like Psilencers ignoring Invulnerable saves. But leaivng them at S4 AP- I still don't think people would use them.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The SS option isn't bad. They will still get ID from Str 8+. They would still be fearing anything Ap 2 or better and Str 8 or better just like normal TH/SS Termies but more so because they cost twice the points and still die to the say number of shots.

[the jeske]

They will still get ID from Str 8+.

unless you take the stratagem that makes one unit ID immune [or rather 2 you will be taking 2 paladin units with SS] and walk up to the opposing army with +2/+3 FnP tier 1.

[The Holy Heretic]

How do you field a Grey Knight army?

 

That was one of the biggest design staples for the new 'dex.

 

I mean, it's the name and everything! :P

 

Edit: I quite like Psilencers ignoring Invulnerable saves. But leaivng them at S4 AP- I still don't think people would use them.

 

I don't, and I don't think you should be able to - except I still include Crowe and Draigo. But the game already have 4 marine armies, a combined marine/human army would be more unique.

 

Note: the silencers compare S8 vs. Ld like the Callidus. This would make it quite unique :)

[Gentlemanloser]

unless you take the stratagem that makes one unit ID immune [or rather 2 you will be taking 2 paladin units with SS] and walk up to the opposing army with +2/+3 FnP tier 1.

 

You talking about the rumoured 6th stuff?

 

I don't, and I don't think you should be able to

 

I disagree here. :P

 

How can you be an elite of the elite army, when you're forced to spam hordes of IG-lite? The current codex give your the option to make this sort of army, but doesn't *require* it.

 

Coteaz with Henchmen as troops, backed up by GK in the other slot is quite possibly the most powerful way to build a GK army.

 

But it shouldn't be the only way...

 

Anyway, the stated design for GK was the GKT would fill the 'core' of your army, with the PA units the specialists. The 'dex doesn't work like that currently.

 

Note: the silencers compare S8 vs. Ld like the Callidus. This would make it quite unique

 

But mostly S4 or even S3 (in some cases S2) while rarely S5 or greater. And at AP-, it wouldn't be used. Still.

 

The SS option isn't bad. They will still get ID from Str 8+. They would still be fearing anything Ap 2 or better and Str 8 or better just like normal TH/SS Termies but more so because they cost twice the points and still die to the say number of shots.

 

Exactly! :)

 

Face SW and get 15 Krak Missiles to your face, roll a oocuple of 1's and watch your 80+ point Pallies die to ID. With no FnP.

 

Then discuss SS on 2W GKT with no EW is OP. ;)

[The Holy Heretic]

The point is to make the GK elite. In order to be elite you need a baseline to rise above, by having an army of 'standard' marines, the GK becomes just another colourcoded marine variant. By having only purifiers/paladins/interceptors as marine options, you get your elite army, without having to include the tactical squad equivalent strikes.

 

And as said, you already have 4 elite marine codexes - you can't get more elite than ultras - there really is no need for a fifth, when you could make something unique.

 

You call my idea 'IG lite'.

 

I dub yours; Codex: Copy/paste bland marines :)

[Morollan]

Face SW and get 15 Krak Missiles to your face, roll a oocuple of 1's and watch your 80+ point Pallies die to ID. With no FnP.

 

Then discuss SS on 2W GKT with no EW is OP. :)

 

Are you trying to say that three heavy support choices, costing a minimum of 420 points, spending an entire turn shooting at one unit and managing to kill, on average, 1.4 models, ie roughly a quarter of their points value, per turn is in need of fixing for the benefit of the Grey Knights?

[Gentlemanloser]

Are you trying to say that three heavy support choices, costing a minimum of 420 points, spending an entire turn shooting at one unit and managing to kill, on average, 1.4 models, ie roughly a quarter of their points value, per turn is in need of fixing for the benefit of the Grey Knights?

 

How do the SS improve thier chances there? :P The SS have absolutely no impact on the Pallies facing 15 krak missile, apart form increasing the cost of the minis you lose.

 

In anything, taking 10 SS's has made it *better* for the SWs.

 

I dub yours; Codex: Copy/paste bland marines

 

Well, if all the chapters have 2W Termies, wrist mounted SB, base S5 Power Wepaons across the board and all having psycic powers, then sure.

 

Call it a C&P army.

 

But actually, there's no other Marines chapter that comes close to play style, or set up, of the GK.

[Morollan]

Are you trying to say that three heavy support choices, costing a minimum of 420 points, spending an entire turn shooting at one unit and managing to kill, on average, 1.4 models, ie roughly a quarter of their points value, per turn is in need of fixing for the benefit of the Grey Knights?

 

How do the SS improve thier chances there? :P The SS have absolutely no impact on the Pallies facing 15 krak missile, apart form increasing the cost of the minis you lose.

 

In anything, taking 10 SS's has made it *better* for the SWs.

 

You're right, SS do nothing against Krak missiles but as you brought the point up I thought it was something that should be responded to. You made it sounds like the above scenario was in some way unfair to GKs.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unfair, sorry it came across as that. It was purely support for the coment quoted above it;

 

The SS option isn't bad. They will still get ID from Str 8+. They would still be fearing anything Ap 2 or better and Str 8 or better just like normal TH/SS Termies but more so because they cost twice the points and still die to the say number of shots.

 

That expensive SS on expensive Pallies wouldn't be an issue. :P

 

I don't think it's unfair. I think Pallies with EW would become the defacto choice in the army. Termies Saves, 2W each, 4 Psycannons per 10 and cheaper than twice the amount of GKT.

 

The lack of ID immunity is what keeps them at 55 points!

 

Storm Raven, <snip> are dedicated transports available to GK units.

 

Now that's something I'd call OP! ;) Awesome to be sure, and I'd run at least one. But heavily OP! ;)

[Morollan]

My bad then. I still disagree with your 'fixes' as they are fixing a problem I don't think exists but each to their own...

[Captain Idaho]

My honest and humble opinion is less of a boost to some areas but more of a points re-jigging to balance the army. At the moment, people seem to be taking one unit more than they should be able to take, given how powerful the army is.

 

If they made it so the army struggled at long range then it would be ok, but right now I think they are hideously cheap as an army right now.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, it was one of the reasons I wanted to remove normal Dreads.

 

Our twin Auto Dreads are very good, and quite cheap. But really, they and H Bolter backs are the only long range we have (excluding the Vindicare ofc!).

 

And I agree Strikes are too cheap. :lol: