The Legions

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ok, so I made this post in New Badab.

 

The Wolves are neither the Emperor's executioners nor drunken fools, to me. They have a very strong viking feel, but the major similarity is that they both live to die. They know their days are numbered - so they try and make the most glory and worthiness that they can in the time that they have.

 

Some of the less honourable and more desperate of the Wolves have spread rumours of, and may even believe, that they are the Emperor's executioners. Such beliefs do naught but dishonour the Wolves - they would not reach for that level of superiourity unless they believed that they needed it to be worthy.

 

This is how I see the Wolves, as far as theme and what not go, because it's a lot better than either having "We are teh awesomez killerz of Legionz!!!!" or "Always drinking, all the time." To me, there is no depth there, and it's ridiculous. So I make them a little bit different.

 

The other legions, I sometimes also think need a bit of adjustment. Now, mostly I plan on leaving these kind of things to ADB <_< But what kind of changes or even rewrites would you guys do? I gave one example, give me yours :sweat:

 

EDIT: :P

[Legatus]

I would write background for the Codex Astartes, explaining that it is actually a very useful tool and written by one of the most gifted military minds, and has been fundamental in the continuing success of the Ultramarines for the past ten thousand years.

 

I would make sure to point out that it does not contain ridiculous suggestions such as "never going into battle with an understrength company or undersupplied vehicles", or "improvised weaponry is not permitted", or "allways attack the enemy, even if on a stealth mission" right next to "never reveal your position to the enemy when on a stealth mission, even if the entire campaign depends on that you do".

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I would write background for the Codex Astartes, explaining that it is actually a very useful tool and written by one of the most gifted military minds, and has been fundamental in the continuing success of the Ultramarines for the past ten thousand years.

 

I would make sure to point out that it does not contain ridiculous suggestions such as "never going into battle with an understrength company or undersupplied vehicles", or "improvised weaponry is not permitted", or "allways attack the enemy, even if on a stealth mission" right next to "never reveal your position to the enemy when on a stealth mission, even if the entire campaign depends on that you do".

 

By the Throne of Terra I love you. I really really do.

 

Seconded. Guillimann being properly defined as the genius would be awesome.

 

 

As for any changes I would make, I would point out that not all of the World Eaters, and Khorne Berzerkers, are spastic foaming at the mouth retards. They like blood, they like skulls, and they love to fight in close combat. It doesn't mean they cannot think in a tactical manner. It just means they have a strong preference to ripping things apart with a chain axe or their own hands.

 

-Tarvik

I'm waiting for ADB to do that too :)

[Olis]

My first thought was in regard to the World Eaters, but Tarvik has amply covered them. My second thought would be to the (corrupted) Death Guard as they are all depicted as bloated creatures when I would be fully inclined to have wasted frames and zombie-esque looks.

[Hyaenidae]

My first thought was in regard to the World Eaters, but Tarvik has amply covered them. My second thought would be to the (corrupted) Death Guard as they are all depicted as bloated creatures when I would be fully inclined to have wasted frames and zombie-esque looks.

 

This, squared.

[Black Mage 257]

I always thought of corrupted Death Guard being the exact same stature as they were before hand..... just a tad more zombified/gross. Also the armour would be more akin to diseased flesh in areas, but they wouldn't be any bigger.

 

I think the World Eater stereotyping annoys me the most to be honest, I always thought of them as being just as tactical as any other marines, but in situations where it is possible or preferable to get their combat prowess and chainaxes involved then they would do so with much gusto.

 

One of my mates always argues this one with me because he believes after the surgeries performed on Angron and co, before recruitment to the emperor, basically meant that they are basically mindless bezerkers already and the corruption only worsened this. I disagree with this completely, if they were so mindless and crazy then I doubt they'd be taking orders from anyone and I doubt even more that handing them power armour and sophisticated weaponry would be the greatest idea. :o

[Captain Idaho]

For me it's more a less literal, stereotypical depiction of each Legion, but then I feel the Heresy series has been a sucess in it's depiction of each Legion overall.

 

I suppose I'd like to see more of the modern time line to be less stereotypical. My personal pet hates are every major battle being a desparate siege and a Daemon Scrap Code removing all the carefully wrought defences of the Imperium.

 

I know that these things work and make for exciting stories, but I feel like they've been over done a tad in recent years. Not by the same author mind, but because different authors all had the same good idea in their novels and implemented them simultaneously in separate novels etc.

 

Anyway, it's a minor comment and probably a little exaggerated, as I'm still a big fan of BL novels and have enjoyed those books with the things I stated were "Pet hates". Maybe I'm just craving the next big thing in a novel, the evolution of 40K story telling into a different way of depicting desparate struggle?

 

Who knows what goes on in that twisted skull of minor.

[Haranin]

I like the idea of World Eaters being sort of like vampires.... ie at war with themselves. So a Eater with lots of self control is just as smart and as tactical as any other marine. But others have given into the rage of khorne, and are frothing killers.

 

Having them all be madman makes you wonder how the imperium just didn't build a kill box, set off the World Eaters and slaughter them all.

[Greyall]

While they're certainly capable of, World Eaters definitely don't look to the tactical aspect of a battle in the same light as...well, any other Legion, perhaps only the Wolves get near them.

 

I kind of like where the novels have been leading them. They're not frothing would-be surgeons, but they're scarily fine with taking the vanguard and just throwing themselves against the enemy and winning through brute strength and skill-at-arms.

 

Which is fine by me.

 

 

I'd like the barbaric side of the White Scars to be more fleshed out, my guess is they owe nothing to the Wolves on that department, but since they haven't had they starring role in the HH narrative, we'll see. I see the Khan's little guys as making even some Chaos Marines go "Whoa, why didn't I think of doing that to that other guy's head?".

[Týr]

Ok, so I made this post in New Badab.

 

The Wolves are neither the Emperor's executioners nor drunken fools, to me. They have a very strong viking feel, but the major similarity is that they both live to die. They know their days are numbered - so they try and make the most glory and worthiness that they can in the time that they have.

 

Some of the less honourable and more desperate of the Wolves have spread rumours of, and may even believe, that they are the Emperor's executioners. Such beliefs do naught but dishonour the Wolves - they would not reach for that level of superiourity unless they believed that they needed it to be worthy.

 

This is how I see the Wolves, as far as theme and what not go, because it's a lot better than either having "We are teh awesomez killerz of Legionz!!!!" or "Always drinking, all the time." To me, there is no depth there, and it's ridiculous. So I make them a little bit different.

 

 

Not to shoot you down... well actually, but don't take it personally.

But I have always had a hard time with: "they have a strong viking feel" as this dosen't really say anything. Do you mean their culture, warfare, trading, the way their society works or their religion?

The age called the viking age was from about 800-1066. Most accounts from this period is from christian monks, arab travellers and some other because they had a written culture. These sources all have a strong tendency, and show vikings in one way (serveral times as being very barbaric). This vauge description of vikings have somehow become the sterotype of them. Most sources though are from archaeologists and these paint a very different picture. Most were farmers, commercial men and relatively ordinary guys.

Besides vikings existed from then early Iron age all the way up to the Renaissance and the term viking changed through this 1000 year period.

Just need to point out that the term viking covers a variety of discourses, hence is a very vauge term. At least for one who lives in scandinavia.

 

I prefer the Dan Abnett way of looking at the wolves, and it's not an interpretation where the wolves feel that: "We are teh awesomez killerz of Legionz!!!!".

The wolves feel that they are the "unlucky ones" because they get the most dirty of jobs. Where no one else wants to go they go. This dosen't mean that they like it, but they are loyal to big E, so they do the job and get it over with.

The "Emperor's executioners" stem from this way of looking at things. They belive thay they have to be the toughest, because there are no one else filling in for them. If they fail all other fail, and so they have to be withput mercy and clinically cold.

Executioner does not mean "ultimate killer". It is a thankless job, and in the middle ages, executioners ended their carreres by comitting suicide, because it was so hard on them.

An executioner has one job only, and that is to do what no one else wants to do. In the wolves case they extend that to "An executioner has one job only, and that is to do what everyone else can't do and dosen't want to do"

 

That's just my take on things, and I respect you're view on the wolves. Just be careful with "strong viking feel"

[Billuriye]

Executioner does not mean "ultimate killer". It is a thankless job, and in the middle ages, executioners ended their carreres by comitting suicide, because it was so hard on them.

 

Executioner means killer of all in 30k. It's not just swinging axe to a hapless victim presenting his neck as in Middle Ages. It's more akin to assassin/destroyer/conqueror. The Wolves simply believe they have the most destructive potency. Which is bashed and rightly so.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'snip'

I meant culture-wise, sorry for not clarifying that. Now, I know a lot of other groups did sagas, belief in runes, earned a place in their heaven by being the best warrior they could, hated sorcerors, typically had wolf pelts and what not associated with them, and were completely at home with being in the freezing cold. I do not think, however, that there is another group except for the vikings that had all of these things, and Space Wolves have all of these traits as well, unlike every other legion.

 

Billuriye explained executioner better than I could.

 

Clearer? ^_^

[Simo429]

As a Space Wolf player the first time I read Abnett's wolves I disliked them, it was marred by the fact that wolves didn't appear in the book till 50 pages in but on second reading and on reading battle of the fang I think its a lot better idea than the Vikings in Space.

 

I love the idea that The Emperor designed his sons with one aspect in mind for each of them. The Space Wolves were set out from the beginning of the heresy as the unstable element, Torgadden himself commenting on that they are the toughest because they are insane. The ruinous powers put into motion the idea to stop them from being involved before the Heresy had been concieved by Horus. I think the dramatisation is perfect for them. Personally I much prefer the Grim Dark version of Wolves which 40k seems to be returning to than Vikings in Space.

[Captain Idaho]

I can't really get on with the idea each Legion was created with a single trait in mind. I think it's more akin to each Legion was created with a deep, heavy leaning of a particular aspect of their phyisolodgy or psyche which results in a similar trend in many individuals. The reason I make this distinction is because firstly, each Legion was an instrument of war and didn't really fight completely differently to each other (as in you would recognise a Space Marine at war regardless whether he was sieging or hit and run etc) and secondly, there are individuals within each Legion who don't adhere to these genetic "rules".

 

I would also like to point out the Space Wolves are actually not unstable at all. Guilliman was right in seeing them as one of his "Dauntless Few", as they can be relied upon to react and perform to events in a predictable fashion.

 

It's this aspect I enjoy in the Heresy novels, to echoe Dark Apostle Thirst's sentiments. I agree with the notion they say Emperor's Executioners not as a badge of honour, but with a cynical laugh.

[Marshal Rohr]

Executioner does not mean "ultimate killer". It is a thankless job, and in the middle ages, executioners ended their carreres by comitting suicide, because it was so hard on them.

 

Executioner means killer of all in 30k. It's not just swinging axe to a hapless victim presenting his neck as in Middle Ages. It's more akin to assassin/destroyer/conqueror. The Wolves simply believe they have the most destructive potency. Which is bashed and rightly so.

 

 

How are the Wolves more destructive the the World Eaters or Night Lords? How do they have more potential to be destructive than the Thousand Sons and all their sorcery? Or the Death Guard which used to have references of using chemical warfare? Or the Alpha Legion who could cause an entire system to capitulate or descend into anarchy with small cells instead of massive army formations.

 

The Space Wolves are destructive on a marine by marine comparison. A space wolf is a dirtier fighter than an Ultramarine. He has as much fury as a World Eater. More blade skill than an Imperial Fist. But 10,000 really good fighters doesnt mean they have the most destructive potency, especially when compared to the most extreme legions.

[Billuriye]

Dude, if you've read my post, i stated that Wolves think they are the killiest guys around, not that i agreed with that. I find the notion ridiculous infact.

[Týr]

Executioner does not mean "ultimate killer". It is a thankless job, and in the middle ages, executioners ended their carreres by comitting suicide, because it was so hard on them.

 

Executioner means killer of all in 30k. It's not just swinging axe to a hapless victim presenting his neck as in Middle Ages. It's more akin to assassin/destroyer/conqueror. The Wolves simply believe they have the most destructive potency. Which is bashed and rightly so.

 

 

It dosen't matter what the word means in general in 30k. What I talk about is, that the Wolves see themselves as executioners in the old meaning. And that is why you can interpret it as: "The Wolves simply believe they have the most destructive potency".

In fact I belive it's more in the lines of: "The wolves simply belive they are the only ones able to do what's asked of them" In that way it has nothing to do with destructive potential, but with how dangerous you are. An enemy that belive they are "chosen" in any way, and that they HAVE to do the job or else all is lost, is far more dangerous than an enemy who belives he has the biggest gun.

 

 

'snip'

I meant culture-wise, sorry for not clarifying that. Now, I know a lot of other groups did sagas, belief in runes, earned a place in their heaven by being the best warrior they could, hated sorcerors, typically had wolf pelts and what not associated with them, and were completely at home with being in the freezing cold. I do not think, however, that there is another group except for the vikings that had all of these things, and Space Wolves have all of these traits as well, unlike every other legion.

 

Billuriye explained executioner better than I could.

 

Clearer? :devil:

 

We are clear. Except I'm fairly certain vikings didn't wear wolf pelts as such. More like fur coats, and they didn't hate sorcerors. Someone had to make their runes, and only certain individuals could know the runes magic and their meaning. But that's just me that need's every detail to be perfect :)

[Billuriye]

The thing is, Wolves being the most efficient killers only due to mindset does not make much sense. The other option is that they are a special breed of Astartes with extra lethality (canine features etc) makes other legions' fans reasonably upset because that means theirs are inferior. It's quite the conundrum.

[Týr]

The thing is, Wolves being the most efficient killers only due to mindset does not make much sense. The other option is that they are a special breed of Astartes with extra lethality (canine features etc) makes other legions' fans reasonably upset because that means theirs are inferior. It's quite the conundrum.

 

I'm not saying they are the most efficient killers. Only what they themselves belive.

And I do not belive they see themselves as the most efficient killers, nor that they are. They belive the only ones to do the job is them, hence no matter what they must succede. It might be that they do not have the power needed, but courage, determination and belif that what you do must be done can get you a very long way.

[Captain Idaho]

I think we are largely on the same page from what I read in this topic.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'snip'

I meant culture-wise, sorry for not clarifying that. Now, I know a lot of other groups did sagas, belief in runes, earned a place in their heaven by being the best warrior they could, hated sorcerors, typically had wolf pelts and what not associated with them, and were completely at home with being in the freezing cold. I do not think, however, that there is another group except for the vikings that had all of these things, and Space Wolves have all of these traits as well, unlike every other legion.

 

Billuriye explained executioner better than I could.

 

Clearer? :P

 

We are clear. Except I'm fairly certain vikings didn't wear wolf pelts as such. More like fur coats, and they didn't hate sorcerors. Someone had to make their runes, and only certain individuals could know the runes magic and their meaning. But that's just me that need's every detail to be perfect :P

Pelts, coats, close enough :sweat: And noted on sorcerors and vikings, should have thought of that. Thanks for getting it though :P

[Raven Angel]

The thing is, Wolves being the most efficient killers only due to mindset does not make much sense. The other option is that they are a special breed of Astartes with extra lethality (canine features etc) makes other legions' fans reasonably upset because that means theirs are inferior. It's quite the conundrum.

 

I'm not saying they are the most efficient killers. Only what they themselves belive.

And I do not belive they see themselves as the most efficient killers, nor that they are. They belive the only ones to do the job is them, hence no matter what they must succede. It might be that they do not have the power needed, but courage, determination and belif that what you do must be done can get you a very long way.

 

I think the point you are tring to get across is that the Wolves beleive that they are the only Legion that won't balk or second guess an order to take out any other Imperial formation. that they are the only ones with the stomach for it, and the ability to live with it afterwards. In that sence they would consider themselves the Emperors executioners.

 

As for changes let see

1 I don't like that the Dark Angels are willing to put themselves infront of the mission. The fallen come first and the rest of the Imperium can burn till thats done. Kinda sucks all the nobility out of them. I'd have there duty to the Imperium win out as that would make their struggle all the more tragic and add greatly to there nobility as they would sacrifice everything including their honor.

 

I'd explan that the Codex Astaries is not just Gullamans thoughts on how war should be waged but was a completely new style of warfare for SMs. Gone where the days of the endless legion. Chapters now have to hit just as hard but at the same time preserve as much of their strength as possible. Thats a very rarified form of warfare that takes time to learn and they had no time.

 

I think in general I'd do away with the whole thought procese that any of the Chaos bezerkesr are just mindless killers. Everything I know about Khorne tels me that he wouldn't actually pay attention to mindless killers. He's looking for the best warriors, and while he doesn't care about colateral damage I think there ia actually a military goal to his campains. Look at the 1st Armagedon war. Why that world? If all you need is a body count then any world will do. Why fight your way out to there and onto that world. I think the answer was the factories. The forces of Khorne have always made the most use of "manufactured" items. Imagine what nasties he could come up with with a whole forge world at his command.

[Epistolary Exander]

I think in general I'd do away with the whole thought procese that any of the Chaos bezerkesr are just mindless killers. Everything I know about Khorne tels me that he wouldn't actually pay attention to mindless killers. He's looking for the best warriors, and while he doesn't care about colateral damage I think there ia actually a military goal to his campains. Look at the 1st Armagedon war. Why that world? If all you need is a body count then any world will do. Why fight your way out to there and onto that world. I think the answer was the factories. The forces of Khorne have always made the most use of "manufactured" items. Imagine what nasties he could come up with with a whole forge world at his command.

 

Nah Angron got bored of sitting on the end of the throne of skulls so he wanted to make his master a new deck chair out of chimeras.