Tarik Torgaddon

[Billuriye]

Nope. It is quite senseful.

[Greyall]

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

[A D-B]

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

 

For really reals. Blood, skin, hair (etc.) have traditionally been the most powerful components in black magic / good magic / fantasy sorcery / mythological spellcasting since... always. How many stories are there across practically every culture of magicians and witches using a hair, or a drop of blood, from the victim of their spell?

 

And using gene-seed in Chaos sorcery / daemonmancy has precedent, too (in the case of sacrificing gene-seed to the Ruinous Powers). Perturabo, f'rex.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

 

For really reals. Blood, skin, hair (etc.) have traditionally been the most powerful components in black magic / good magic / fantasy sorcery / mythological spellcasting since... always. How many stories are there across practically every culture of magicians and witches using a hair, or a drop of blood, from the victim of their spell?

 

And sacrificing gene-seed to the Ruinous Powers has precedent, too. Perturabo, f'rex.

 

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

Summong using his blood, body and gene-seed as sacrifice is something I have no problem with because it makes sense in the context of how those things work in-universe.

 

My issue is with the daemon being "him".

[Clewz]

My issue is with the daemon being "him".

 

It seems more likely that the daemon has either ensnared his soul or just assumed his identity rather than it being him.

 

I'm wondering if its all a link back to Chieftain Torgaddon & Horus' Torgaddon bodyguard in the collected visions

[Greyall]

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

That I agree with, to some extent. But this seems either a case of a daemon just inhabiting a husk and mentioning Torgaddon's name in his own for the creepy effect (I vote for this one) or something like Fulgrim, with Torgaddon's soul "bullied" into the dark depths of the entity's mind.

 

Now that I think of it, a cadaverous, warped daemon-Torgaddon marching alongside Horus' troops is very impactful, the idea is certainly growing on me.

[A D-B]

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

 

For really reals. Blood, skin, hair (etc.) have traditionally been the most powerful components in black magic / good magic / fantasy sorcery / mythological spellcasting since... always. How many stories are there across practically every culture of magicians and witches using a hair, or a drop of blood, from the victim of their spell?

 

And sacrificing gene-seed to the Ruinous Powers has precedent, too. Perturabo, f'rex.

 

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

Summong using his blood, body and gene-seed as sacrifice is something I have no problem with because it makes sense in the context of how those things work in-universe.

 

My issue is with the daemon being "him".

 

Oh. Oh.

 

Sorry, man. I was miles away, I missed what you were saying.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

That I agree with, to some extent. But this seems either a case of a daemon just inhabiting a husk and mentioning Torgaddon's name in his own for the creepy effect (I vote for this one) or something like Fulgrim, with Torgaddon's soul "bullied" into the dark depths of the entity's mind.

 

Now that I think of it, a cadaverous, warped daemon-Torgaddon marching alongside Horus' troops is very impactful, the idea is certainly growing on me.

 

It has that beauty of really showing how deep a betrayal can run, yes, but for me if you're a solid/good character and you die then just stay dead.

 

Resurection of dead "heroes" is as bad as "And we woke up and it was all a dream..."

 

 

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

 

For really reals. Blood, skin, hair (etc.) have traditionally been the most powerful components in black magic / good magic / fantasy sorcery / mythological spellcasting since... always. How many stories are there across practically every culture of magicians and witches using a hair, or a drop of blood, from the victim of their spell?

 

And sacrificing gene-seed to the Ruinous Powers has precedent, too. Perturabo, f'rex.

 

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

Summong using his blood, body and gene-seed as sacrifice is something I have no problem with because it makes sense in the context of how those things work in-universe.

 

My issue is with the daemon being "him".

 

Oh. Oh.

 

Sorry, man. I was miles away, I missed what you were saying.

 

:)

[Kol Saresk]

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

That I agree with, to some extent. But this seems either a case of a daemon just inhabiting a husk and mentioning Torgaddon's name in his own for the creepy effect (I vote for this one) or something like Fulgrim, with Torgaddon's soul "bullied" into the dark depths of the entity's mind.

 

Now that I think of it, a cadaverous, warped daemon-Torgaddon marching alongside Horus' troops is very impactful, the idea is certainly growing on me.

 

It has that beauty of really showing how deep a betrayal can run, yes, but for me if you're a solid/good character and you die then just stay dead.

 

Resurection of dead "heroes" is as bad as "And we woke up and it was all a dream..."

 

Yeah but here's the thing, none of the Loyalists defending Terra are going to know Torgaddon was Loyal and then turned Traitor. Except for the Loyalists who will become the first Grey Knights and they are supposed to miss the Siege all together according to the Codex. So any shock factor would be minimal at most. Now if they do bring him back and it messes with Aximand.....

 

EDIT: I'm still against the resurrection of heroes once they have lost their heads and were crushed by a building before being bombed into dust.

[A D-B]

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

That I agree with, to some extent. But this seems either a case of a daemon just inhabiting a husk and mentioning Torgaddon's name in his own for the creepy effect (I vote for this one) or something like Fulgrim, with Torgaddon's soul "bullied" into the dark depths of the entity's mind.

 

Now that I think of it, a cadaverous, warped daemon-Torgaddon marching alongside Horus' troops is very impactful, the idea is certainly growing on me.

 

It has that beauty of really showing how deep a betrayal can run, yes, but for me if you're a solid/good character and you die then just stay dead.

 

Resurection of dead "heroes" is as bad as "And we woke up and it was all a dream..."

 

 

I actually don't see how this makes no sense. Grab the remains of a hero of the loyalists (their meaningfulness gives them power, if I understand 40K daemonic rites), use them as a host/conduit for a daemonic entity --> profit. I'm sure it's been done before, but even if it hasn't, it's a great idea.

 

For really reals. Blood, skin, hair (etc.) have traditionally been the most powerful components in black magic / good magic / fantasy sorcery / mythological spellcasting since... always. How many stories are there across practically every culture of magicians and witches using a hair, or a drop of blood, from the victim of their spell?

 

And sacrificing gene-seed to the Ruinous Powers has precedent, too. Perturabo, f'rex.

 

Well it's more that the implication is that that daemon could be Torgaddon.

 

Summong using his blood, body and gene-seed as sacrifice is something I have no problem with because it makes sense in the context of how those things work in-universe.

 

My issue is with the daemon being "him".

 

Oh. Oh.

 

Sorry, man. I was miles away, I missed what you were saying.

 

:)

 

Your smiley confuses me.

 

I meant that I thought you were objecting to the concept itself, but you were actually objecting to the notion it was really Torgaddon himself, and not the overall concept. I'd not realised the distinction when I first answered.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

EDIT: I'm still against the resurrection of heroes once they have lost their heads and were crushed by a building before being bombed into dust.

 

Personally I find them just losing their heads is often enough to take them out of the game.

 

EDIT:

 

Your smiley confuses me.

 

I meant that I thought you were objecting to the concept itself, but you were actually objecting to the notion it was really Torgaddon himself, and not the overall concept. I'd not realised the distinction when I first answered.

 

Strangely enough it is the "huh" smiley.

 

I couldn't work out if there was some sarcasm in that reply, so I went for confusion instead - but you've subsequently explained yourself anyway.

[Kol Saresk]

We will probably see something like this if it is really him:

Tarik wakes up dead. Remembers that Aximand kills him. A Dark God/Daemon/Pantheon talk to him. At first he resists. They probably show him images of grandeur and maybe even tell him that Loken turned traitor right after he died. Tarik misses the Mournival. He wishes it could be whole again. The thingymajig offers that to him. It tells him that the Mournival can be restored. He is the only one missing. It doesn't tell him that he has already been replaced. Tarik finally breaks down and agrees. Sees a bright light. Wakes up on Calth. Erebus says "Welcome back." Short story ends. Somewhere in the Siege of Terra, Loken misses the memo to be on Titan when it disappears into the Warp. Him and Tarik meet up. They kill each other. The fans live happily ever after knowing that this time they will stay dead.

[Kazak1920]

I don't know why are you everyone saying that nobody knows that Tarik was loyalist. When I told about "punch in the face for loyalist fans" I was saying about us, fans of WH40k and Space Marines; not characters in the books. We can compare it for example, if Word Bearers turn back loyal once more. I bet that CSM fans would be raging a lot if something like this come true. So are we, now.

Well, I know that this daemon can just possess his body, and Torgaddons soul will be dead further, but it's still leaves "bad smell".

[Kol Saresk]

I misread the fan part. I thought you meant the Loyalist characters.

[Aegnor]

I'm firmly in the "those-killed-on-Isstvan-should-stay-dead-dagnammit" camp. Loken's resurrection was as well handled as it could be, given how deeply flawed the idea of actually having him not be dead is, but yeah, Tarik is dead, so if it were up to me, it has to be a daemon appropriating his body/name/face for the lulz.

 

Personally hope we don't see him again. As a little nod to fans of the series, as a mention in passing, these sorts of things are ok. If it turns out that the same faces keep showing up at key parts of the narrative, out of a war spanning a galaxy and billions of combatants, including 100,000s of marines, who are all meant to be remarkable, it starts to make the universe feel smaller and less epic. The worst sort of example of that sort of thing was the Star Wars prequels, where it felt EVERYONE who did anything had to be connected to the original trilogy - I was half expecting a 6 year-old Han Solo to turn up during the last movie.

[nightlordsrock3564]

no i think he's dead. he had his head cut off!!! he's not the black knight in monty python (it's just a flesh wound)

[Antarius]

Stupid question: In what book is it revealed that Loken isn't dead after all?

[No Foes Remain]

Its the Garro audio books, Garro: Legion of One I think.

[warpedphonecian]

I agree that Torgaddon is a husk, or likeness for a demon to embody; given his irrefutable death at Istvaan III, I think his progenoid + chaos black magick = demonic doppleganger. It's frustrating that his "conjuring" is mentioned so casually in KNF. It's a real mystery as to how they'll develop this character IMO.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Been mentioned already...but Torgaddon's deader than dead. As a matter of fact, doesn't

Loken try prodding him in the back and find out that his body has no head in the Garro Audiobook?

[The Colossus]

As an aside, we clearly have no problem with Plague Zombies- dead people brought back to life by Nurgle. We've seen them already in 30k. Why is there an issue with Tarik being dead? Personally I wouldn't like to see him back however...

[Jim Shady]

It could be one of the Chaos gods took his soul when he died at Lil Horus' hand and kept him for this ritual summoning? It'll be interesting, to say the least, as to how this will play out.

 

Just my 2 pence.

[TennisBall]

As an aside, we clearly have no problem with Plague Zombies- dead people brought back to life by Nurgle. We've seen them already in 30k. Why is there an issue with Tarik being dead? Personally I wouldn't like to see him back however...

Zombies are not dead people brought back to life, they are corpses that are animated and given enough basic motor function to move and act on their own.

Torgaddon's soul went wherever souls go when you die in the 40k verse. That his remains were later despoiled and his gene seed used to bring about a demon does not mean that his soul was somehow yanked back. I don't think human souls can be hunted down like Eldar souls can. Fulgrim was possessed because he was entwined with the demon whilst still alive, Torgaddon was long dead when his gene seed was removed. I also wonder what the gene seed has to do with Torgaddon anyway (again) because the gene seed represents the primarch ultimately and not the genetic material of the marine in which it resides and grows (why I find it hard to accept all these chapters that don't know who their primarchs are).

[Kol Saresk]

All souls go to the warp. It's the Sea of Souls after all. Slaanesh just has a patent on devouring eldar souls. And since gene-seed is being created by the Mechanicus it is possible that they have created minor gene-strands that don't truly belong to any of the Primarchs. Besides, the way the Imperium keeps "losing" records it is entirely possible that they forgot, assuming they ever knew.

 

On the Torgaddon note, the gene-seed is simply representative of life. What has been, what is, and what will be is all contained within the gene-seed. When a sacrifice is made to Chaos, it is made with that kind of impact. When a man is sacrificed, all the possibilities of his children are sacrificed with him. A gene-seed was the singular trait of carrying the genetic identity of its past hosts along with it so when it is sacrificed, the past is sacrificed with it along with the potential futures and its present host.

 

But currently there is nothing against human souls being hijacked from the warp since the eldar usually have their souls held within the warp stones. I think the closest example would be the Rubric Marines since they are supposed to be animated by their own souls. IIRC.

[TennisBall]

At which point you have to wonder what the relationship of the warp between its various parts is. If all the souls go into the warp I assume that doesn't mean that they become food for the chaos gods or there would be a thriving market in spirit stones like the eldar have. There must be some sort of division that even the warp entities can't cross.

Demons essentially are their own selves, they're a soul of sorts so they don't require souls to manifest, they just require the right conditions such as ritual, a body (even dead) and a weakness between the warp and the physical verse.