Iron Lord Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 In Dark Heresy: Purge The Unclean, ghosts play a major part- the ghosts of the psykers who were being transported aboard a Black Ship. It also goes into some detail on what the Imperial Creed says about ghosts: THE IMPERIAL CREED AND SPIRITS OF THE IMMATERIUM The official position of the Ecclesiarchy on the spirits of the deceased is that the Emperor judges all faithful humans after death and, if they are worthy, grants them a place in his celestial army. Differing interpretations of the Imperial Creed offer a wide variety of explanations for what happens to those souls deemed unworthy of joining the God-Emperor's ranks, but who are not so heretical as to be damned out of hand. Some versions say they are reborn to try again, others, that they must wander the afterlife for a time, braving the dangers of the warp as penance for a life ill spent until their actions have redeemed them, proving them worthy of the God Emperor's service. There are also many tales of legendary servants of the Emperor returning from the immaterium to the world of the living when the people of the Imperium once again need them. Some versions of the Creed refuse to acknowledge the sentience of such entities, referring to them in technical terms such as "post-life warp signatures" and "the aetheric charge contained by a residual personality". Regardless of the fine points of doctrine, the Ecclesiarchy does acknowledge the existence of spirits of the dead. Several branches of the Inquisition take a very active interest in such entities and their relationship to the warp. The bulk of the Ordo Xenos, however, holds the opinions of the Eldar in contempt, as they are widely thought to be a race of liars who hate humanity and thus not to be trusted. Just because the Acolytes are likely to believe in the existence of spirits doesn't make meeting a large group of them any less frightening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3025907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Well, I do know this: everything I have ever read about servants of Chaos is that they die, become a part of the Glory that is Chaos and then become minor daemons. Just leave it there because I have no idea if they retain their personalities or get new ones, assuming they even have personalities. Not really sure what happens to Imperials. I know with the Eldar, it seems either go into something like the Webway Circuit(is that what it was called?) or Slaanesh gets to eat you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3025977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gal-Vorbak Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I will not be the least bit surprised if Tormageddon makes a return. KNF was, after all, an Abnett book, and we all know how he loves to bring back characters. Just as I'm sure the sergeant who was awaiting censure when everything went to hell will be back. On a somewhat related note: The gene-seed, while primarily housing the genetic information of the Primarch it was derived from, also stores the genetic data of its previous owners. Hence why in the 41st millennium, a large number of "vintage" Astartes abilities (acid spit, for one), have all but disappeared, both from genetic deterioration and technological regression. Therefore, it is highly possible that some iota of Torgaddon's essence is in Tormageddon. Also, Little Horus suffered some kind of battle injury that gave Horus the chance to basically reprogram Aximand's brain and thus remove his feelings of doubt and remorse over the course of events. In this, having Tormageddon around would serve as a perverse joke that few Traitors knew about. Just my speculation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3306197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Torgaddon's resurrection was actually confirmed in Betrayer of all places. So it did happen. But for some reason I am somewhat more comfortable with this resurrection than I was with Loken's. not exactly sure why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3306210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Torgaddon's resurrection was actually confirmed in Betrayer of all places. So it did happen. But for some reason I am somewhat more comfortable with this resurrection than I was with Loken's. not exactly sure why. Wait, what? Where? Maybe I was reading it so fast that I missed this, but I have no memory of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3306530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Page 225. The conversation between Erebus and Argel Tal. It is what convinces Argel Tal that Cyrene could be resurrected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3306546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I'm firmly in the "those-killed-on-Isstvan-should-stay-dead-dagnammit" camp. Loken's resurrection was as well handled as it could be, given how deeply flawed the idea of actually having him not be dead is, but yeah, Tarik is dead, so if it were up to me, it has to be a daemon appropriating his body/name/face for the lulz. Personally hope we don't see him again. As a little nod to fans of the series, as a mention in passing, these sorts of things are ok. If it turns out that the same faces keep showing up at key parts of the narrative, out of a war spanning a galaxy and billions of combatants, including 100,000s of marines, who are all meant to be remarkable, it starts to make the universe feel smaller and less epic. The worst sort of example of that sort of thing was the Star Wars prequels, where it felt EVERYONE who did anything had to be connected to the original trilogy - I was half expecting a 6 year-old Han Solo to turn up during the last movie. Agree totally - every time some hero resurrects, he loses a bit of his legend....dead heros should stay dead, else grimdark will become some kind of comic version where everybody eventually rise again...Agree on SW also... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3306578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hell no, Torgaddon can't be ressurected :( When I heard about Loken's resurrection I was "ok, he lose some of his awesomeness but its cool the idea of Loken being the only survivor of Istvaan III searching for revenge". But bringing Torgaddon back...a hero, a beloved character for many people (c'mon just the scene when he made that comment to Nero Vipus about his new hand and his personnal hygiene, made me lol, I didn't expected it), and to bring him back to be a...bad guy? He fought to the death on Istvaan, fighting his own brothers and someone got his head and turns him into a daemon? Why? What's the reason? It's really necessary in the plot? Death should be a serious thing in literature, just see what's happening in comics, nobody tooks any death seriously anymore, its like: "meh, he died again, he will come back in a couple of months. Bringing back a dead character is a bad choice in most cases but bringing him back being the opposite of his former self? Ok, I understand there's some twisted thing there but if they wanted us to have a particular feeling about the heroes of Istvaan being dead, why this after? I hate that Torgaddon was killed, but that's the thing, I hate it because I loved the character, if they bring him back and in a daemonic form, I will feel like they're tearing apart all the character development. Same way for Cyrene, I felt sad when she died, bringing her back...will destroy all the magic, and bringing her back looking like a daemon of nurgle even worse LOL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hell no, Torgaddon can't be ressurected When I heard about Loken's resurrection I was "ok, he lose some of his awesomeness but its cool the idea of Loken being the only survivor of Istvaan III searching for revenge". But bringing Torgaddon back...a hero, a beloved character for many people (c'mon just the scene when he made that comment to Nero Vipus about his new hand and his personnal hygiene, made me lol, I didn't expected it), and to bring him back to be a...bad guy? He fought to the death on Istvaan, fighting his own brothers and someone got his head and turns him into a daemon? Why? What's the reason? It's really necessary in the plot? Death should be a serious thing in literature, just see what's happening in comics, nobody tooks any death seriously anymore, its like: "meh, he died again, he will come back in a couple of months. Bringing back a dead character is a bad choice in most cases but bringing him back being the opposite of his former self? Ok, I understand there's some twisted thing there but if they wanted us to have a particular feeling about the heroes of Istvaan being dead, why this after? I hate that Torgaddon was killed, but that's the thing, I hate it because I loved the character, if they bring him back and in a daemonic form, I will feel like they're tearing apart all the character development. Same way for Cyrene, I felt sad when she died, bringing her back...will destroy all the magic, and bringing her back looking like a daemon of nurgle even worse LOL The Torgoddon that reappears is not the same Spirit as the Hero o Isstvan III. He is just a flesh puppet for a daemon that Erubus helps into being. Or maybe it is the same spirit that is corrupted by being killed by a fellow Mournival brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 If I have read everything correctly, it appears that it is the same spirit turned daemon(much in the way the old fluff for furies had them as the souls of Undivided servants) that has spent two years in the warp, experiencing who knows what at the hands of the daemons. But here's the kicker, it may be the same spirit, but it is more than likely not the same Tarik Torgaddon, as this is Tarik-who-is-now-Tormageddon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I remember having a discussion on Loken on this forum back when GiF was released. I argued then that it didn't actually state that Loken had died, but was shouted down. It only stated that it 'the world went black around him' on p. 398, and then that Abaddon and Aximand thought him to be dead on p. 400. The final passage on p. 404 just indicates that he went unconscious. People read into the final passages on Loken far more than was actually stated. Torgoddon's battle with Aximand is worded slightly clearer, but the 'I'm sorry' leaves some room for ambiguity - not much though ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 If I have read everything correctly, it appears that it is the same spirit turned daemon(much in the way the old fluff for furies had them as the souls of Undivided servants) that has spent two years in the warp, experiencing who knows what at the hands of the daemons. But here's the kicker, it may be the same spirit, but it is more than likely not the same Tarik Torgaddon, as this is Tarik-who-is-now-Tormageddon. That's actually a reasonable theory. F'rex in the Tv Series Supernatural when a human soul goes to hell is tortured by daemons, if the soul can't resist the excruciation it turns into a daemon itself, so yeah, that could have happened with Tarik, but it would still being Torgaddon himself, just turned to the other side, that's what I personally don't like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I remember having a discussion on Loken on this forum back when GiF was released. I argued then that it didn't actually state that Loken had died, but was shouted down. It only stated that it 'the world went black around him' on p. 398, and then that Abaddon and Aximand thought him to be dead on p. 400. The final passage on p. 404 just indicates that he went unconscious. People read into the final passages on Loken far more than was actually stated. Torgoddon's battle with Aximand is worded slightly clearer, but the 'I'm sorry' leaves some room for ambiguity - not much though Vindication for you then brother. Good call. I personally would have preffered Loken stay dead, but hey, I'm not the writer. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Vindication for you then brother. Good call. I personally would have preffered Loken stay dead, but hey, I'm not the writer. :P Yeah maybe that was a little, 'I told you so'. Thanks for the light touch. I probably deserved a kick ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/248853-tarik-torgaddon/page/3/#findComment-3310697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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