Dealing With Current Meta

[I am Legion]

The current armies favoured at my GW are:

Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Tyranids, Necrons, and there is like one Chaos Player.

 

Due to codex creep some of these have been phasing out older armies since they do the same things but better. So how do we as Blood Angel players keep up?

 

Yes, we have our traditional strategies/meta, but is it enough these days? Lets face it, Grey Knights whoop our butts in close combat, so much so that I see alot of BA players using mechanized lists. Those are all good and fine, but they are countered by Dark Eldar Ravager/Venom Spam. (add more examples if you can from your experiences, this is what I see). I don't see many Attack Bikes anymore even, and people are using one storm raven and one Baal Pred along with a sprinkling of assault troops. So they are just getting picked off turn one and two...

 

So as I sat there today painting some Assault Marines with the occasional walking around the tables, I got to thinking. Is it time for us to really start using our foot soldiers more? Imagine in a 1500 point game, I think you can jame 50 or 60 assault marines along with one or two Priests, and maybe a librarian or reclusiarch leading them? would this force the other player to hunker down more? thus playing only defensively? Say for example the list below. We see a Marine spam, there can be some variations if you want with elites of course or an honour guard just to beef up the army a bit, or of course the librarian with Unleash to boost his unit.

 

Reclusiarch--JP

 

2xS. PRIEST--JP

 

10xRAS--2xMG, PF

10xRAS--2xMG, PF

10xRAS--2xMG, PF

10xRAS--PG, FLM, PW

10xRAS--PG, FLM, PW

 

1460

 

Now this isn't exactly a frightening list. But imagine how much firepower will be required to deal with this army. It can still deal with tanks, since as marines we're all armed with Krak grenades hitting rear armour. Most Grey Knight players arn't exploiting their armies to the fullest. Meaning that they are using 5xmarines with Razorbacks, but there is only 2 of these, and a bunch of terminators and say a... dread knight. Not enough to deal with this many people. Dark eldar and necrons are having a similar issue. Nids on the other hand always have a handful of monstrous creatures. No warriors anymore though (I thought Warriors were wicked at some point). Space wolves are vanishing these days but they do have some good units that will hurt a list like this. In that case, why can we have a couple attack bikes with MMs again? yeah it's cutting into this list, but they'll benefit from FNP...

 

So what are you guys fielding as your all rounder armies these days? are they still largely effective, or are you finding that (and I see it all the time) people will tailor they're lists before a match...

[Jorre]

There is one major problem with your idea.... Building and painting that many assault marines makes my head spin!

[Emperors Immortals]

I like the list, i currently run 2-4 tac squads with rhinos, Rec, honour squad and DC in rhino and i swap out DC dreads/preds or RAS as the whim takes me.

 

Even with a high amount of full squads, I can be competitive in my local.

 

I find that a little dedicated anti-armour is all thats needed, after a flat ou move of course!!

[Morollan]

There is one major problem with your idea.... Building and painting that many assault marines makes my head spin!

 

I have 30 JP marines and another 20-ish on foot so I could field something along these lines if I wanted. Not sure how successful it would be though as it lacks any ranged firepower, meaning you would need to get up close and personal to take out any vehicles, leaving you potentially vulnerable to whatever is inside those vehicles.

 

Might be interesting to give it a go though.

[appiah4]

I'm actually going another similar direction: Spamming foot slogging Tactical Squads:

 

1 Reclusiarch

10 Tactical Squad (Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta)

10 Tactical Squad (Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta)

10 Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon)

10 Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon)

9 Death Company (Power Fist, Bolters, Drop Pod)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

5 Devastator Squad (4x Missile Launcher)

 

Yest, that's a lot of guns.

[Rybnick]

The only problem I've run into with masses of Assault marines is that your relying on them to A) deal damage and :D count as scoring units for objective missions. I've found that they are usually good at either A or B but rarely are they good at both. This isn't a huge issue you either learn to have a speific goal for each squad in a game or bring along a spare cheap scoring unit (my favorite is 5 scouts w/ sniper rifles and a ML w/ camo cloaks).

 

In my normal BA marine spam list I have 3 squads of Assault marines w/ melta PF, and 2 full 10 man squads of Devestators (4x ML in one and 2x Lascannon, 2x plasma cannon in the other), a couple MM attack bikes, 3 priests (2w/ JP and LC the other on foot) and at least one librarian w/ jp. This of course varies depending on point level of the game.

 

This type of list does fairly well in my meta. In most cases I prefer starting on the board as opposed to DoA deployment but sometimes DoA is the better option. Shifting 50 marines most of which who have FnP and FC can be a challenge for pretty much any army out there if you play smart. I play my librarians in this type of list more defensively they always have Shield of Sanguinius the other power varies between Unleashed Rage, Might of Heroes and Fear of the Darkness (Blood Lance would work too but I quit taking it a while ago because I never have success with it).

[The Yncarne]

Play it and try it out.

 

I suspect you'll continue to have problems popping vehicles, facing GK in HTH, and focusing enough fire to take out heavy infantry. I also think you don't have enough force multipliers to take advantage of the assault squad's abilities. Replace the reclusiarch with a librarian to get some saves while keeping a stronger offensive punch.

 

I thought playing with no vehicles would give me an option in my local meta, but all it has done so far is seen my units get isolated and often charged due to trying to hold objectives. Perhaps 4 games with the same list isn't enough for me to make a definitive statement, but I haven't been as effective as when I add some Baals or dreads to distract my opponent and add some shooting. Even my honor guard squads with plasma and melta aren't as effective.

[I am Legion]

There is one major problem with your idea.... Building and painting that many assault marines makes my head spin!

 

Hahahahaha! Yeah...I know, I'm working on my third 10xRAS right now, and man....Just the thought of painting 2 more full squads.....*points bolter at head*

 

Yes this list certainly lacks in ranged firepower, So perhaps a Devastator squad or 2 will help support them, or of course Attack Bikes, who can keep up with the army. But I definetly see your point.

 

Rybnick - I completely agree that you need a unit or two to hold objectives, I prefer a combat squaded tactical unit, one to sit back with a lascannon, and the other up front with a plasma gun. And I know the issue with assault marines is that they are just troops in the end, and losing even 5-7 (from various squads hopefully) per turn is a drag, but those 5-7 will inevitably have been cheaper than losing say a baal predator, or even a Storm raven. And yeah I meant to say it above but this is the kind of list that would not be DOAing most of the time since you can't afford to split the army.

 

The Red Worm - The GK lists I see around me at least are consisting of about 20 models, be they in terminator armour or otherwise. Yes HTH with them in discouraging, so does that mean it's time to bring plasma back? Plasma can deal with low armour vehicles, MEQ/TEQ units, and of course Monstrous Creatures...

 

Don't forget that once you get rid of that footslogging unit, you'll have to face of VS the vehicles, but with FNP, even Assault cannons don't overly worry me (plus cover or Shield).

 

See when I play my friends (we're all UBER competitive players), they will use unconventional or spam lists, which is important in a competitive setting as each time we play it's a new challenge. There are games where I've won and lost by tabeling or alternitevly been tabled due to that. And they are all rounder lists to be fair.

 

The other major advantage to having such number is that you are creating your own cover as you advance and your librarian can shield the front unit a bit at least. Thoughts?

[lordvogalus]

It appears as if the meta is shifting to favour my army.

 

JP libby

2x priest w/JP+PW

10man tactical+PF in rhino

10man tactical+PF in rhino

10man assault+2xmelta+PF

5man DC+TH in razorback

5man Sanguinary guard+PF+inferno+banner

 

I thought that this was not going to be very competitive, but this thread seems to suggest that it will be good, unless my meta is very different than the ones mentioned in this thread. How much does the meta typically vary from area to area? Is it basically the same or does it shift dramatically a lot?

[Atlantic]

The meta around here is lots of vehicles or horde lists in the form of orks or nids.

 

I used to run 4 - 6 razorback assault squads with Mephiston or some other deathstar unit in a land raider.

 

Frankly, I'm starting to believe that Codex BA should not be played in an attempt to out elite other elite armies.

 

I think a serious helping of long range shooting coupled with hordes of troops (either tactical or assault) is the way to go. Out number the rock hard elite armies and outfight / outshoot the horde armies.

[Morticon]

Frankly, I'm starting to believe that Codex BA should not be played in an attempt to out elite other elite armies.

 

I agree with the general idea of this, though not necessarily that it equates to horde.

 

But its interesting to see how the meta is changing in various places across the world, and how new armies influence older armies.

(Horde) Orks have suddenly risen to the fore here in CT, and the top GK list is a crazy henchmen foot list (with no vehicles).

 

Its really changed up how I need to design lists. Factor in that with the errant nasty lists like Paladins or Vendetta Spam -and you have issues!

[The Yncarne]

@I Am Legion: It could just be me, but I don't find plasmas all that effective vs GK unless you have several in a single unit. My usual GK opponent has been tweaking his list the past few weeks. He tends to run two rhinos with the deep strike jammer which prevents me from getting too close to his other units. He also has changed from psyfleman dreads to ones with assault cannons. He'll also take a dreadknight or two. It isn't either Draigo wing nor a bunch of cheap troops in massed razorbacks. So this opponent has been a tough nut to crack lately.

 

One of my regular Necron opponents takes two monoliths and just pounds me with the guns as my meltas bounce off. I don't expect 3 S9 powerfist attacks, 5 las cannon shots, and 5 melta shots within 6" to fail me every game, but the tactics of getting close for the meltas is offset by the S8 AP3 template hitting my units after trying to assault.

 

The Necron player I fought yesterday used a completely different army setup with all the new gubbins. I don't know the new codex enough to play very well, but it sucks watching a reclusiarch do two wounds to a scarab swarm before being wiped out in HTH. Nor is it much fun watching Dante get escorted off the board by a Royal court after 12 power weapon wounds wipe out the assault squad with priest that Dante was trying to lead.

 

The last time I played against Orks I died to mass loota boys. I simply couldn't get across the board fast enough, even with all the jump packs. I am not a championship caliber player, but I believe a BA foot slogging army just isn't as effective as having my heavy weapons on vehicles.

 

I hope your experience is better and you can share your insights.

[bebe]

I've been having my issues as well. I generally play bikes and jump packs but lately I've tried inserting devs and I've beefed up my terminator squad as well. I often walk my termies now behind a screen of bikes. They seem to outperform the rest of the list in most games. Still, evry match up now presents me with new problems ... Necs with dangerous terrain and monoliths, IG castling up in corners with buffer squads, Tau plasma spam ... I could go on.

I can handle the less effective codexes okay ... Nids, Eldar Orks but even some of those, well designed and played can be a challenge. I'm not wiping anything off the board.

[I am Legion]

Yes, that's the main issue these days that I've come up against as well, I'm simply not wiping out the opponents army anymore. With the decreased points costs as opposed to ours, the other armies are simply fielding more units, and they all seem to retaliate much harder than before. That's why I was suggesting a troop spam. So now if we look at this army in another way. say 2 dev squads with lascannons or plasma, a couple attack bike squads and the rest of the point into assault marines, and a librarian. Would something like that work?

 

The Red Worm - Vehicles were great before, and I love my baal preds, always swore by them, but they are getting slaughtered. keep in mind you'll have those games where you just arn't getting the rolls, but even then it's offset by DE firepower. The furiosos are staring to lag behind even in storm ravens as they get blasted out of the air.

 

Morticon - Yes! My friends and I were sitting after our game looking at the Henchmen list, and realized that you can have that one inquisitor (torquemanda or something), and you can take a squad of 3 MM servitors for like 30 points, and theyre all troops. so you can max out your MMs with that character at around 400 or so points. that leaves you with alot of points to work on the rest of the army!!!! This is frightenening to me.

[Emperors Immortals]

I'm actually going another similar direction: Spamming foot slogging Tactical Squads:

 

1 Reclusiarch

10 Tactical Squad (Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta)

10 Tactical Squad (Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta)

10 Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon)

10 Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon)

9 Death Company (Power Fist, Bolters, Drop Pod)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

1 Sanguinary Priest (Combi-Plasma)

5 Devastator Squad (4x Missile Launcher)

 

Yest, that's a lot of guns.

 

 

Now i run somethign similar, but ive found its best to drop the plasma from the combi-melta squads and give them MM for mid table objectives and vehicle sniping, cut the DC to 6-7 and add at least a PW, drop a SP and replace the devs with either a tactical termies (near 2 tac squads and a priest ) with cyclone and 2 attack bikes (i usually take double HB speders with a melta).

 

That way ive got the bodies, ive got the objective takers and ive got some firepower.The only real problem ive faced so ar has been genestealers and IG parking lots.

 

Any suggestions to get this list fitter?

[Atlantic]

I would not go all tactical as being able to assault stuff is still important.

 

I think you could lose the plasma cannons and the combi weapons to save points.

 

Perhaps 2 or 3 tactical squads with 2 ish assault squads. I would try to squeeze another missle dev squad in as well.

 

I haven't done the math, but something like

 

Assault Squad 10 2 melta guns, power fist

Assault squad 10 2 melta guns, power fist

 

Tactical Squad, pw or pfist, plasma gun, multi melta, rhino

Tactical Squad, pw or pfist, plasma gun, multi melta, rhino

 

2 Devastator Squads with 4 times ML

 

From there add a couple of sanguinary priests and a 3rd or perhaps even 4th tactical squad. I would do flamer / ML for those squads though.

 

A librarian with a jump pack would be good too for shield.

 

I think your best bet against Genestealers and the like would be to use the rhinos to castle, hose them down with frag missles, etc as and when they bust the rhinos and then use your assault squads to beat them down as they should be pretty well softened up. You should be able to get at least two turns of shooting on them terrain depending.

 

 

With Guard Parking Lots, I would camp the Dev Squads in the table corners and spam Frag Missles just to try and force stuff to break. Load the tacs in the rhinos and go flat out and pop smoke. Forward the assault squads and try to hide behind the rhinos. Bad stuff will happen, but if you can get into his tanks or into hand to hand it should work out.

[The Yncarne]

I am Legion: I usually outflank with the Baals. It will give my opponent some concerns on where/when they will arrive. Alternatively, I can scout them to someplace fairly well covered. They key for me is to have them still able to support the infantry or perhaps near an objective to provide support to a unit that can actually hold the objective.

[bebe]

I rarely DS nowadays and I use a lot of jump packs and terminators. I try and start most everything on the table. I rely on cover, FNP and 2+ saves. I still have no vehicles - unless you count bikes. But I'm mobile as all get out. Standard Kirby Blood Rodeo and and an alternative deathstar terminator build. Both have their moments - some moments better than others.

[MadMek83]

There is one major problem with your idea.... Building and painting that many assault marines makes my head spin!

 

I have 30 JP marines and another 20-ish on foot so I could field something along these lines if I wanted. Not sure how successful it would be though as it lacks any ranged firepower, meaning you would need to get up close and personal to take out any vehicles, leaving you potentially vulnerable to whatever is inside those vehicles.

 

Might be interesting to give it a go though.

 

Aye, if you get bad luck like me and local GW's run heavy tailored anti DoA list... You're in trouble. Of course with good dice rolling and terrain can give alot advantages but its a longshot. I still like yourlist. I ran 1300P Jump Pack DC, I shredded everything but Ragnar Blackmane and Battle leader due invulnerable saves. Most of of the time I have to deal 48"-36" nasty missile and HB barrages and24-12 regular bolter, plasma andm melta and rapid bolters. FNP keeps your troops alive well but still, I easily have to run each shooting phase 40-50 armour saves and FNP's. That much isu usually minimum before I get change to shoot will quarantee casualties. Still DoA's are fun to play but its sometimes just brutal...

 

I am building atm mechanized BA forces too. Just to get some... more options and change of tactics is refreshing.

[Mezkh]

The problem with all Assault Marines is they get tied down too easily. They are good supporting units and scorers, but they just don't do enough damage in combat for their points.

[BloodTzar]

Personally i am more and more sold on PC/ML devs sq's with PC tac sq's in rhinos mixed with ASM in lazors supported by MM bikes. All becouse the sheer number of GK paladins i am facing ( even helberds strike sq's areanoying), just to make them eat that ap2.

[I am Legion]

So it appears that Devs are going to be the way to go. And I can agree to that, as I have recently bought 2 boxes of them (christmas actually). Devs are a loner unit, and are weak against advancing troops. I've had it where they have done no damage before but that's not always the case of course. So as I understand, 2 plasma and a ML or 2, along with lets say 3 lascannons? 4 attack bikes with MMs, and back to the troops.

 

Yes assault marines are still troops, thus not very strong against anything that's out there right now. but with a massive amount with FNP, and one squad ahead of the next (for cover saves), they should at least manage to get stuck in. Say we use that Tactical squad to cover 1-2 objectives (combat squaded), we still need a VIP unit such as Mephiston (not a big fan of special characters but thats just how it is these days), or terminators.

 

So say we get some terminators with THSS. we need to find a way for them to teleport safely into the right spot. We can use our combat squaded Tactical unit that had 2 turns to move up. Or if you need to save some points or just want another decent objective holder we can bring in that second tactical squad. By the time the assault marines move up hopefully those terminators should be dropping in.

 

So now we have heavy support, cover save/FNP RAS, with Attack bikes w/ MM, along with a tactical squad who'll hopefully bring in some termies. These should be able to kinda handle anything I've been seeing these days. Well there is also DC. DC are good in certain situations, but no one I've spoken to is worried about them anymore. That's not good, but they are more elite that standard RAS. Do they still fit into competitive lists then? Or are they a point sink? Keep in mind when moving forward, you should never have them being kited around, they should always be hitting the front of the opposition with a healthy amount of support, such as other RAS units. Thoughts?

[Emperors Immortals]

For DC effectivness, see Morticons battle reports, they help win national tournies and IMO can healp turn the tide of battle.

 

Ive commited them against various troops and they will usually come out on top - i use a 5man squad w/ attached Rec/Chappie in a heavy bolter back for all the fire support they need, take 2 bolters and use the tank for blocking.

 

Last night for example, they engaged a Trukk filled with Nobz and held them in place until a Baal pred could help finish them off, it let me win the game by pinning his star unit in place for 3 full turns.

 

So yes, given a small amount of support (like an attack bike or speeder or even a Tac unit) they are VERY useful IMO.

 

But then again i still insist on using a lot of bolt-based tactics.

[Atlantic]

I am a firm believer in not sticking anything other than Missle Launchers or Multi Meltas on your Devastators. Krak missles are your best friend for MEQ killing and they only cost you 10 points per launcher.

 

Given the mobility problem with Devastators, those expensive weapons just cost too much. I think plasma weapons on infantry squads that do not have a sanguinary priest are an invitation for bad ju ju.

 

GK paladins suck, but you do not have to spam Plasma to get the job done. If you bring enough guns to the table, you will mess them up anyway. The key is when Draigo's storm raven or whatever pops to try and get your assault marines ready to charge (and preferably shoot the jerks with 2 melta shots) and turn every gun on the table onto them. It's going to be ugly, but shoot the crap out of them and then multi charge. Once that unit is broken up, you win.

 

If you are looking to include ap2 weapons in your list, you ought to consider las plas razorbacks and multi melta attack bikes.

 

Because our rhinos are fast, if you move he las plas razorback 6 inches, you can fire all 3 weapons, so one las plus 2 twin linked plasma shots that won't burn you.

 

If you are going to add plasma cannons and plasma guns, put them on tactical squads with a sanguinary priest. Don't fool with combi plasma either as you can only shoot it once.