Warp Wraith Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hello, I just started a Space Marine army and bought Assault on Black Reach. Now I have 2 tactical squads(I got another one besides the reach one), 5 terminators, a Captain, and a dreadnaught. I am getting a rhino, so my question is what I should buy next. I play against my roommate who plays ork swarm with lootas. Thanks. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 If you haven't bought the Rhino yet, I would buy a Razorback instead (you can make a Rhino from the kit, plus have a Razorback turret to swap on for those times when you want one). I would purchase a second Razorback for your other Tactical Squad. If your roommate plays Ork hordes, perhaps a Whirlwind or Thunderfire cannon would be effective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Well, dont get a Rhino, get a Razorback. You dont glue on the back hatch and you can use it as either vehicle whenever you want- for a $2 increase in price. Its a good deal, I promise. You want a Whirlwind. Trust me. Nothing wipes out hordes of orks better than a Whirlwind and you can do it from out of LOS so those loots wont just blow it up turn 1. Another transport would also probly go well, and potentially a command squad- lots of special weapons for countering specific threats like Meganobz etc. Lastly Landspeeders and/or bikes are always useful for their speed and firepower. You should proxy them and see if they fit your playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Wraith Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 So the razorback and a whirlwind. My roomie also has expressed the desire to create a evil sunz biker gang. Do I counter this eventuality with devastators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I echo all that has been said. Also, consider a Drop Pod for your Dread with MM, allowing it to easily get into position and possibly take out tanks that haven't done anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 All good suggestions so far. I would just add that you might want to think about getting 5 more tactical terminators and some cyclone missile launcher bits... My sig block has an article on why I think 10 tactical terminators are better than 5 and they are pretty good against lootas and orks in general. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Wraith Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 All good suggestions so far. I would just add that you might want to think about getting 5 more tactical terminators and some cyclone missile launcher bits... My sig block has an article on why I think 10 tactical terminators are better than 5 and they are pretty good against lootas and orks in general. -Myst Thanks, your article was a really good read. ;) I think I'll get the 5 extra tts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfeild32 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 you want 3 thunderfire cannons trust me he will feel the pain from 12 smal blast no cover save shots per turn as you have 3+ cover for your guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I suggest you get yourself a librarian sometime soon (1,500pts+ range)... Not a must have against orks... but just an awesome support HQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 you want 3 thunderfire cannons trust me he will feel the pain from 12 smal blast no cover save shots per turn as you have 3+ cover for your guys! If only TFCs had a plastic/Finecast kit :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon999 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 As someone who started out playing vanilla marines against orks, I can tell you those lootas are going to ruin your day on a regular basis. My friend runs a sqaud of 12 usually, and sits them on the backfiels with a good view. They can kick out so many str 7 shots that anything with an AV less than 13 is going to die (glanced to death), and they will routinely wipe out an entire squad of infantry in a turn as well (volume of armour saves). If you can get close to them, they fold like a deck of cards but that can be tough. Deep striking a dread works, until he gets to expect it and deploys in such a way as to deny you a backfield drop (dicey anyways since if you scatter off the table you lose your pod). Recommendations? More tacticals. One squad of tacticals will die against virtually any ork unit in assault, two with good use of combat tactics can wipe out a 30 man boyz squad handily in two turns. Whirlwinds are great too, mostly due to their cover ignoring shot, but I would say you need 2-3 to make them really worthwhile. I run one and its great, but with a single shot per turn and full scatter when firing from behind cover your chances of a good hit are low on average. Thuderfires I hear RULE against orks, though I have never tried one. Speeders are also a good choice, either Multimelta/Heavy Flamer or Typhoon variants work well (remember that typhoons can move 12" an fire frag missiles and the heavy bolter since they count as defensive weapons, doesnt work for krak unless you move 6" or less). Truthfully, it depends a lot on his army build what will work, but I hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 As someone who started out playing vanilla marines against orks, I can tell you those lootas are going to ruin your day on a regular basis. My friend runs a sqaud of 12 usually, and sits them on the backfiels with a good view. They can kick out so many str 7 shots that anything with an AV less than 13 is going to die (glanced to death), and they will routinely wipe out an entire squad of infantry in a turn as well (volume of armour saves). Mathhammer would argue this point... 12 Lootas ... mathhammer averages depending on # of shots: Shots: 12 ... 24 ... 36 hits: 4 ... 8 ... 12 wounds: 3.33... 6.66 ... 10 Space Marines in power armor should expect to lose only 1-3 models per volley. Terminators should expect to lose 0-2 models per volley. Not exactly "routinely wipe out an entire squad". 180 points to kill 1-3 marines per turn is not that strong. Strength of Lootas is their shooting at the rhinos and Preds. That's where they will hurt you, especially if you only take one or two and they are key to your battle plan. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Do NOT buy whirlwinds. They are garbage. You will only ever want to use them against horde footslogging lists on large boards and even then they are garbage. Untill they actually get some worthwhile missiles, they are AV11 wastes of space and points. Do yourself a favor and stay away from them. Buy dakka predators for the same points or land raiders (the redeemer or crusader) or thunderfire cannons before even thinking about the whirlwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I think Whirlwinds rock. Been of great use to me against Orks, Eldar and Tau. A unit you might like, Land Speeder Storm with Heavy Flamer transporting 5 Scouts with Powerfist/Combi-Flamer. They can use their scout move/infiltrate rules to get right in the Lootas faces from turn one if you're lucky, and take them out of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Do NOT buy whirlwinds. They are garbage. You will only ever want to use them against horde footslogging lists on large boards and even then they are garbage. Untill they actually get some worthwhile missiles, they are AV11 wastes of space and points. Do yourself a favor and stay away from them. Buy dakka predators for the same points or land raiders (the redeemer or crusader) or thunderfire cannons before even thinking about the whirlwind. Whirlwinds arent garbage, theyre awesome. They clean out infantry quite quickly, they pin better than scout squads, theyre bargain priced, and they reliably make their points back against eveh C:SM. Use them as a one-two punch. Pop open a transport with a tactical squad or speeder, then shell the newly exposed squad with your whirlwind to get a good solid hit in. Why anyone thinks the WW is an underpreformer I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Do NOT buy whirlwinds. They are garbage. You will only ever want to use them against horde footslogging lists on large boards and even then they are garbage. Untill they actually get some worthwhile missiles, they are AV11 wastes of space and points. Do yourself a favor and stay away from them. Buy dakka predators for the same points or land raiders (the redeemer or crusader) or thunderfire cannons before even thinking about the whirlwind. Whirlwinds arent garbage, theyre awesome. They clean out infantry quite quickly, they pin better than scout squads, theyre bargain priced, and they reliably make their points back against eveh C:SM. Use them as a one-two punch. Pop open a transport with a tactical squad or speeder, then shell the newly exposed squad with your whirlwind to get a good solid hit in. Why anyone thinks the WW is an underpreformer I dont know. I think the problem is that for a lot of people 90% of what they fight is power armoured... and especially in this edition a lot of armies are meched up and this makes people say they are bad... Also if like many people they have insufficient terrain the WW will also look bad as it is fairly soft. Stick lots of terrain on the board and the dakka pred isn't looking so great and the whirlwind is looking better. I personally prefer the whirlwind to the thundefire cannon... as I don't think thunderfire cannons are that hard to destroy, although they do have a lot more dakka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Friends don't let friends buy whirlwinds. Every other conceivable option is better than a whirlwind. Until the whirlwind gets better missiles, bolter stats that ignore cover on a rhino that has a minimum range is worthless. Heavy bolter stats that do not ignore cover on a rhino that has a minimum range is pointless compared to a dakka pred for the same cost. Save your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Surprisingly enough not everyone plays Marines, so not everyone uses Rhinos. The OPs main opponent uses Orks, last I checked they had no Rhinos. In an MEQ environment Whirlwind's may be below par, if only for mech and strong armour saves and T4 across the board. In a GEQ environment Whirlwinds are much better, due to less transports (commonly, apart from Guard), lower toughness Troops and/or worst armour save. Also, such armies like Orks and Nids are very reliant on cover, which is also where the Whirlwind comes out. I don't like my Hormagaunts hiding infront of Venomthropes to get a flamer to the face, but I don't care if I can gribble the offender. The Whirlwind lets you take care of that and not get gribbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excubitor Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Just from my experience, tactically, if you get within short range of orcs...it's far, far better to charge than to be charged. The extra attack and strength they get changes them from a very average assault unit to a very dangerous assault unit against standard marines. If a mob of 20 or less boyz get within 12 inches, move forward, fire bolt pistols/assault weapons, then charge into assault. Also, definitely agree with the whirlwinds. Whenever possible I run 2, even against MEQ, and they rarely don't get their points back. Lootas are a powerful unit....right until a big gaping hole is blasted in the middle of them. One good strike from a whirlwind and they'll take both pinning and leadership tests - since they're only ld7 and tend to set up close to the table edge, both can take them out of the game for at least a turn, if not permanently. Partly the reason why noone uses lootas at my LGS anymore ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 If you want to list tailor. Dual heavy flamer land speeder is 60 points. A thousand times better than the whirlwind due to better stats on the heavy flamers and it's movement (move 12" means 6s are needed to be hit in CC). You can possibly take up to 9. Orks use vehicles and walkers in addition to their mobs. Tyrannids use fodder screens to hide their actual threats. If you want to spend the points on a vehicle that will only help you kill the weakest of models, then there are still better choices than the whirlwind. There's no good reason to buy or take a whirlwind unless you just love the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 A lot of people on here have been saying that in their personal gaming experience the Whirlwind is good has commonly had a good impact on their game. That's worth something. Of course, you may have had bad experiences with them, but remember that your meta is not my meta. Or their meta. The OP plays Orks a lot, so why are you knocking the Whirlwind which is near tailor made for that encounter? And Tyranid screens can be very real threats, so can Ork Boyz. That's why they're dangerous. Venomthropes, KFFs, Furious Charge, poisoned attacks, all of these make the screens threats that can hurt if you don't deal with them. Of course, the units behind also hurt if you can't deal with them. That's why you need models to deal with both. Not too sure about the dual HF Speeders. You mention moving them 12" to make combat units on 6s, but doing so lets them fire only one weapons. I'd prefer the MM/HF still then, versatility so you can handle the walkers, truks, MCs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 To be fair, the whirlwind can be a rhino or a whirlwind... so unless you wanted a razorback it's still a better deal than a rhino since it adds flexibility in list building. If you buy the rhino you'll never be able to decide if all those guys on the internet knew what they were talking about or not. Also, keep in mind that GW likes to make bad models really strong in new editions, and we have a new edition on the horizon. No telling what that will do to the whirlwind. It might be really good at that point... or when SM gets a new book. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 End result being, only buy razorbacks, and do not glue on the top hatch so you can switch between razorbacks and rhinos. You can't go wrong with those two options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Oppressor, besides "Whirlwinds are garbage", could you enlighten us to why you don't like them and perhaps your own personal experience with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Oppressor, besides "Whirlwinds are garbage", could you enlighten us to why you don't like them and perhaps your own personal experience with them? Darkguard, I have given reasons and alternatives in my posts. If you choose to disagree with them or even ignore them under a blanket statement, you are welcome to. My experiences with whirlwinds are versus IG troop horde where it did ok at best at killing guardsmen when the pieplate actually landed in good positions. That was fine, until the AV11 failed to save it from shooting from outflanking units. This went on for exactly 3 games. I have turned it into another rhino long ago. I see no reason to spend 85 points on a rhino that is only ok at killing the weakest statline models in the game. As this thread is about what we think the OP should buy next, I am telling the OP what I think he should get next. Razorbacks and land speeders will be more beneficial to you versus any army you face than a whirlwind ever will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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